Guess I'll just have to send my slants to Richard Petty up in NC.
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| Lack of machine shops https://slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=65300 |
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| Author: | Charrlie_S [ Tue Sep 08, 2020 5:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Lack of machine shops |
Guess I'll just have to send my slants to Richard Petty up in NC.
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| Author: | SlantSixDan [ Tue Sep 08, 2020 6:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Lack of machine shops |
Quote: There have been numerous documented cases of a slant six going 500,000 and even 1,000,000 miles without a rebuild.
Errr…I would like to see some of that documentation.
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| Author: | Reed [ Tue Sep 08, 2020 6:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Lack of machine shops |
https://www.allpar.com/old/club/view400.php |
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| Author: | slantzilla [ Tue Sep 08, 2020 6:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Lack of machine shops |
When I worked in the service station in the late '70s we had a customer with a '74 Valiant who changed oil every 20,000. It made 98,000 before it welded up the crank. I took the valve cover off and there was a perfect mold of the inside of it in sludge underneath. You could barely see the rockers. |
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| Author: | sportscarclinic [ Tue Sep 08, 2020 7:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Lack of machine shops |
Quote: https://www.allpar.com/old/club/view400.php
I'm skeptical that one can accurately characterize this evidence as "documented", counselor.
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| Author: | ProCycle [ Tue Sep 08, 2020 7:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Lack of machine shops |
Quote: ...I've owned several '70-'80's era Volvo wagons with over 250k on the clock. Sure, they started and ran...
Way back when I was in the import car repair business we coined a phrase "Volvo's Disease". A car with Volvo's Disease continues to run and so the customer continues to bring it in for the mechanic to try to fix all the myriad things that are worn out and used up. Advanced cases of Volvo's Disease become car zombies. You've all seen them. Cars that should have gone to the scrapyard long ago but keep running, so folks keep driving them.
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| Author: | Reed [ Tue Sep 08, 2020 9:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Lack of machine shops |
Quote: Quote: https://www.allpar.com/old/club/view400.php
I'm skeptical that one can accurately characterize this evidence as "documented", counselor.Well, then,     Granted, we don't know the history of those engines, but with basic maintenance and reasonable usage, the slant six was a very durable engine capable of great longevity. Any engine or machine can last a long time with proper maintenance and no abuse. One of the main things that makes new engines "better" is that a computer controls things that used to be up to the car owner to control, such as keeping the fuel mixture correct, keeping the ignition system and timing in good adjustment, etc... There have been significant improvements in engine oil technology, metallurgy, piston ring construction, valvetrain control, and other aspects of engines that make them run more efficiently and last longer. But older engines, when properly cared for and used as they were designed to be used, can remain serviceable for very long periods of time. Older engines often wore out before their time due to poor maintenance and abuse. I have only ever owned one Volvo car. It was a piece of crap. I bought it and cleaned it up for my sister because she really wantred a Volvo. I was about to turn the keys over to her and was doing a final adjustment to the timing, just tweaking it about two degrees, when the engine died. I barely got it restarted but it would keep dying. I finally managed to get it to a local Volvo specialist by "two footing" it- keeping one foot on the gas so the engine stayed at about 1500 RPM and putting my left foot on the brake to stop. The Volvo specialist had the car for a it then called me and told me the engine was totalled because the "flame trap" was worn out. WTF? Flame trap? He wanted an obscene amount of money so I dragged the car home and ended up selling it to a junkyard that put a new engine in it and then sold it in their used car lot. Good riddance. Any engine that goes from running fine and strong to having a catastrophic failure because the base timing changes from 10 to 8 degrees BTDC is a poor design. Did I get a lemon? Probably. Will I ever buy another Volvo? No, and I don't know why people rave about them. |
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| Author: | SlantSixDan [ Tue Sep 08, 2020 9:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Lack of machine shops |
Just plunking my eyes at random on the 200,000 milers' club list in the March '90/'66 Valiant issue: Second entry: 506,500 miles. Overhauled @ 175,000 and rebuilt engine installed at 354,000 So where's any 500,000 or 1,000,000 miles without an overhaul here? Third entry: Odometer reads 440,000, but not working at time of purchase Oh yeah? That's interesting. So it's not the original owner, and it must be the only '61 Valiant in existence with a 6-digit odometer, because the max reading on every other '61 Valiant in the world is 99,999.9. And that's just two examples that are particularly outstanding. Pretty good bet a lot of the cars in these lists are like that '61 Valiant with the odometer that actually reads 40,000 but it doesn't work but the owner says it really means 440,000. Even better bet a lot of the cars in these lists are on their 2nd, 3rd, 8th, 12th owner and nobody actually knows how many miles they really have on them. Quote: Do you have any information or evidence to rebut the accuacy of my evidence? Anything to attack the weight or credibility of the evidence?
Reed, it's not evidence. It's not documentation, either; It's claims and assertions with no evidentiary support. And where's even the claim of 1,000,000 miles without an overhaul…?It's a rugged engine, for sure, but don't let's get carried away. These piles-of-miles claims are much like the claims of Toyota Corolla gas mileage from old Slant-6 B-bodies: the closer you look, the more you find there's no real substance to them. They're mostly fish stories. |
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| Author: | Reed [ Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Lack of machine shops |
OK, I could swear I read somewhere over the years that there was at least one slant that went a million miles without a rebuild, ditto on the 500,000 miles. And in my defense, Richard Yoash, first guy in the issue 59 list claimed a 69 Barracuda with 512,000 miles with only a valve job at 479,000. I will admit I spoke without support. At least support I can lay my hands on quickly. Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. Ignosce me. But still, I stand by my argument that old engines, when properly cared for and not abused, can last as long as newer engines that are computer controlled. Are they as efficient? No. Do they burn as clean? No. But will they last? Yes. And you tell me what you would rather replace a water pump on- a slant six or a modern transverse mount four cylinder engine with the water pump tucked behind the timing belt? But none of this squabbling addresses Charlie's original point- machine shops are disappearing. |
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| Author: | sportscarclinic [ Wed Sep 09, 2020 9:04 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Lack of machine shops |
Quote: One of the main things that makes new engines "better" is that a computer controls things that used to be up to the car owner to control, such as keeping the fuel mixture correct... ...There have been significant improvements in engine oil technology, metallurgy, piston ring construction... You mention a couple of items here that *are* critically important to the increased longevity of newer engines. Another thread hinted at the consequences of flooding the intake floor with condensed gasoline. Computer controlled fuel injection goes at lot further in preventing fuel washed cylinder walls, and diluted oil. As well, the plain cast iron rings of yesteryear are great for resisting wear due to poor intake air filtration (another item of advancement), but don't seal or maintain tension nearly as long as modern moly or chrome plated, nitrided steel rings. The consequence is diminished compression and oil consumption at a fraction of the mileage. Quote: Older engines often wore out before their time due to poor maintenance and abuse.
As Dan pointed out earlier, it sorta boils down to how long "their time" is from the initial design point-of-view. 100k was the estimated service life of most engines back in the day. Even then, some freshing up along the way (de-coking, valve and seal job) was often an expected maintenance item. Most newer engines need nothing for the first 100k miles, hence the incredibly long powertrain warranties offered on new cars.Quote: The Volvo specialist had the car for a it then called me and told me the engine was totaled because the "flame trap" was worn out. WTF? Flame trap?
The flame trap is PCV device, nothing more. In the most extreme case, I can't imagine how a totally block flame trap would total a Volvo engine.Quote: Did I get a lemon? Probably. Will I ever buy another Volvo? No, and I don't know why people rave about them.
I think the lemon you got was your mechanic. I've owned too many Volvos to remember. The 245DL wagons are honestly engineered like nothing else on the road. The durability and rigidity of the unibody (even with noticeable rust), and utility of the vehicle is something that has to be experienced to be believed. With good shocks (Konis) the wagon will track like a slot car at 80+ mph through highway curves, and will still truck down a seriously potholed gravel road just as straight, but maybe not quite as fast, with hardly a rattle. I've moved a full sized washer and dryer together in the bed of the wagon with the seats folded down. I've similarly overloaded the bed with a stack of 4x8 sheet of plywood (yes, it will fit a full sheet with the hatch closed.) that weighed 1200 lbs, and I'd wouldn't think twice about it. I can go on, and on, and on here, trust me on that. I've already mentioned high mileage expectations. But did I mention that *no one* riding in a 245DL was killed in a collision for a period of like 20 years (yes, I'll start looking for that documentation. lol). Volvo invented the seat belt, btw. Ugly, but probably the best vehicle ever built for guys that prioritize the things we all appear to when judging cars.Oh, yeah, machine shops.. right. Between those catering to marine and/or construction/industrial equipment, I've got to think there are capable shops still operating within a reasonable drive of just about anywhere. Of course, what constitutes "reasonable" depends on where you live. In Texas, you take a drive to get to the mailbox. |
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| Author: | Reed [ Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:37 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Lack of machine shops |
Quote: I think the lemon you got was your mechanic.
He would disagree, but you can judge for yourself:https://www.artworksvolvorepair.com I will never own another Volvo, or recommend them. Uncomfortable, the interior was just greasy plastic and hard rubber, very uncomfortable, the ride felt like a truck, and they are just ugly. Obviously, I never experienced the legendary longevity or ruggedness of their engines, either. |
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| Author: | sportscarclinic [ Wed Sep 09, 2020 12:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Lack of machine shops |
Fair enough, no vehicle suits everyone. Personally, the only thing I need as far as interior 'comfort' is concerned, is a driver's seat that holds me in place. Btw, I did think of a way the flame trap could junk and engine. Flame traps clogs, crankcase pressure blows out rear main seal and all the oil leaks out without the owner noticing the thick plume of blue smoke as it burns off the hot exhaust. Owner then ignores the oil light and continues to drive the car. Engine gets totaled. That's about the only scenario I can come up with. Maybe I should start a new "Volvo" thread... |
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| Author: | Doctor Dodge [ Wed Sep 09, 2020 12:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Lack of machine shops |
Quote: Guess I'll just have to send my slants to Richard Petty up in NC.
I "feel your pain" on finding (and supporting) good local automotive machine shops.. . I feel lucky that I had a few "good ones" in the South Bay Area (California) and that I have found a couple of good automotive machine shops in Santa Rosa, CA., where I now live. Some" rules" I follow when using any specialty shop: I always treat them as professionals and do what I can to make the work I give them, easy (and profitable) as possible. I always pay them more then they ask. I always Thank Them for what they are doing. I never "jerk them around"... I deliver the items as discussed, tell them clearly what I need and pay them for the work... Done. If something is not right, I tell them about it, (quickly) and negotiate..(politely) If all the automotive machine shops "went away" in my area, I would be faced with 3 choices: -Stop doing work on cars. -Get the needed equipment to do the work myself.. -Start shipping items to shops out of my area. (or buy more new or "re-furbished" items and "pay-the-freight" to get them.) On that note, I still will buy "rebuild" SL6 engines and pay for the shipping. Upon receipt, I take the engine completely apart and "re- rebuild" them... . Lower "margin" jobs because of shipping costs but I do get all the machine work done, with-out "waiting". DD . |
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| Author: | Dart270 [ Wed Sep 09, 2020 2:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Lack of machine shops |
Great stuff there, Doc. I am fortunate there is an excellent shop in Roanoke 50 min away - Terry Walters. They do a bunch of the heavy equipment diesel work too, so they are always fairly busy. I never hurry them and they have not let me down yet. They charge fair prices, but I should tip them as you say. I always tip my body shop because they never charge enough... Lou |
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| Author: | sportscarclinic [ Wed Sep 09, 2020 2:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Lack of machine shops |
Quote: If all the automotive machine shops "went away" in my area, I would be faced with 3 choices: -Stop doing work on cars. -Get the needed equipment to do the work myself.. -Start shipping items to shops out of my area. (or buy more new or "re-furbished" items and "pay-the-freight" to get them.) -There's another good reason to buy that Bridgeport you've--probably--always wanted. -With Fastenal shipping complete engines for well under $200 (used to be anyway, haven't checked lately), it's not out-of-the-question to let the machinist of your choice do your machine work (er..as long as there's a location nearby on both ends). |
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