JC,

Don't know if it will help but here are a few pictures of installed rocker shafts"

http://slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php ... ht=#298629

http://slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php ... ht=#298335

http://slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php ... ht=#251893
Now we know why the S&W guage never worked with the Chrysler sender. The ground is backwards.

All S&W guages are not the same 240 ohms -just one example:

http://tinyurl.com/cvndg43

Switch off means very little I think - other than a ground problem. (e.g. sender wire not hooked to anything) My truck goes to empty with switch off. Not sure why anyone would make a guage that goes to full with the switch off. That's not how you check the guage.

Switch on and the sender wire grounded should send the needle to "Empty" if it works they way you say.

Switch on and sender wire hanging in mid-air means it has no ground at all so it goes as far to "full" as possible - even past "full".

The good news is - I think your guage is probably okay except we don't know what ohm rating it is made for.

Danny

I am wondering tho, sense the gauge is pretty old, and dont know when SW actually started changing their product line around, if it isnt a 240 ohm gauge? His gauge looks like the DLX model from the pics ya can see it in. Altho the dlx ver is avail now in different ohms values....

Only other thought is maybe a resistor decade box to help him figure which sender is needed, but in his neck of the woods dont know if anyone would have one. Takes a hobbiest in the electronics/ amature radio field usually to have something like that, or maybe an old tv/radio repair place....

_________________
MRO....

Cheap, Fast, Reliable.... Pick 2...

Hey Danny,
Nice Engine pictures. Alas, they don't show the detail that is needed.

Permit me to describe what it is that is being sought.

On the TOP Front End of the Rocker Shaft, there is supposed to be a "flat".

The Manual that I have calls it THAT, but doesn't explain what it is.

There is a drawing accompanying the explanation which has an arrow pointing to the Rocker Shaft front end, and a note at the tail of the arrow that says: "Flat on Rocker Shaft". But the drawing is so small that all one can see is the arrow pointing to the upper front end EDGE of the Rocker Shaft.

There is NO detail of what the "flat" looks like, nor is there an explanation of what it is.

On Lorrie's ACTUAL Rocker Shaft there IS a teenincy flat place, maybe a half inch long on the upper front end of the Rocker Shaft that looks as though it has been dropped or maybe even filed.

The result is a little, flat eliptical shape that interrupts the circular edge of the OD of the Rocker Shaft on its front end.

The Manual says to have that "flat" on the top and front end of the Rocker Shaft. That's the way it is on Lorrie presently.
It is?
But GENERALLY speaking, S&W Gauges are (uless otherwise) 240 Ohms Empty, and 33 Ohms Full. And Lorrie's S&W Gauges are all OLD (1985) S&W Gauges.
What was written was NOT meant to imply that it was a "test". Was only reporting what the Gauge was doing, e.g. with the Run Switch ON, the Gauge pegs ABOVE Full. With the Run Switch OFF the Gauge sits on the Full line.
Haven't done any test of THAT.
Exactly.
It is most PROBABLY the S&W general "240 Ohms = Empty/33 Ohms = Full".

Will know for sure next Friday when the NEW S&W 385CF Sending Unit arrives on Thursday afternoon.

Anyway, am going to be cleaning out the Gas Tank tomorrow morning.

Will let you know how it goes.

JC

_________________
Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor

JC,
I found a post from Doc.
Richard

_________________
Part of Tyrde-Browne Racing

Hey Mr. OF,
Have just this afternoon staked $39.23 (including 2nd day delivery) on the S&W Fuel Gauge being a "240 Ohm = Empty/33 Ohm = Full" by ordering a S&W Fuel Level Sending Unit, Part Number 385CF from Speedway Motors, the OLDEST Hot Rod Speed Shop in the country.
Will know the answer once the 385CF Unit gets here. Am going to have Lorrie's Gas Tank all clean and ready for the 385CF's installation and then the Gas Tank's installation into Lorrie.

Will let you know how it goes.

JC

_________________
Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor

Hey Richard,
Have been doing some research on the "flat". Am NOW positive that Lorrie's Rocker Shaft is installed right-side-up!

When Doc says: "The locating "flat" is hard to find on many rocker shafts.", that kind of confirmed what I had been thinking.

The place that I was not sure was the "flat" is NOW most certainly the "flat".

I have to say that this is the most FUN thing that has been done with Lorrie so far. Am more intimately involved with this than anything with which we have had to deal to date.

And the Fuel Gauge/Sending Unit Caper, along with the Fuel Tank and OLD and NEW Gasoline has been VERY eduational.

And messing with Lorrie's Valve Assemblies has been a blast. Have always wanted to be this involved in this kind of thing but have never had the occasion to do it.

Having to seek out the answers to these things instead of just having someone tell what has to be done is REALLY interesting. Am having the time of my life!

Anyway, am fading fast. Will be up tomorrow while it's cool getting Lorrie's Gas Tank all prepared for reinstallation.

Will keep you updated.

JC

_________________
Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor

Yes, when you touch the sender wire to ground with a Chrysler guage the pointer goes to "Full". Your's would go to "Empty". Totally incompatable. If the ohms happened to match the guage would read empty when it was full and full when it was empty. Most likely they didn't match so it did all sorts of mystifying things.

If the ohms happened to match but the ground worked backwards, all you have to do is bend the float arm on the sender so that it faces/swings the opposite direction.

That is the first and best test to make sure your guage is working and wired correctly. You can tell if the guage is the problem or the sender is the problem. Since you already bought a new one it doesn't matter anymore unless you want to make sure you wired the new one correctly.

Danny

Hey All,
Have already gotten an update on the UPS Tracking. The S&W 385CF Sending Unit left Oklahoma City last night just before midnight enroute to Houston. Will hit Houston this afternoon, then will be out to Conroe, and on the UPS Truck tomorrow morning for delivery tomorrow afternoon.

Have done some research on the S&W situation. When S&W started, they used a 240 Ohms = Empty, and 33 Ohms = Full format.

It was later that they started making Gauges to fit the Auto Companies Sender Units.

Am counting on the fact that the S&W Fuel Gauge being a 1985 model and will be the aforementioned 240 Ohms = Empty, and 33 Ohms = Full S&W format.

Anyway, have gotten the Fuel Tank cleaned out.

First, put some of the OLD Gasoline into it and shook it around and emptied it out.

Couldn't tell whether or how much "stuff" it picked up.

Then put a 40 ounce bottle of Purple Power (an alkaline detergent) into the Tank and filled it up with water. Let it sit for about an hour occasionally agitating it.

Then started overflowing the Tank with water. LOTS of crud came out.

Then emptied the Tank and refilled it with water, agitated it by rocking it violently back and forth, and more LOTS MORE crud came out.

Emptied the Tank again and did the filling/agitating routine again.

Continued doing that till nothing else was coming out.

Then did it twice more, and figured that THAT was about all it needed.

Then positioned the tank on a cinder block with the Fill Pipe facing down to drain it. Rocked it all around till no more water could be gotten out of it.

The Gas Tank is now sitting on Lorrie's Port Side Door Floor Well with the Filler Tube facing down and hopefully it will dry out.

Am thinking that maybe the Conair Hair Dryer blowing hot air into the Tank to help it dry might be efficacious.

Am just taking a break. Rocking a Tank back and forth violently is quite tiring.

Have you ever put rocks or a chain into a Gas Tank?

I'm glad I didn't.

There would be absolutely no way to get it/them back out.

If one were to use a chain, it would be prudent to have one end of the Chain tied to a cord so that it could be extracted. But it would be almost impossible to get the Chain past the baffles into the back part of the Tank.

And rocks? There is NO WAY that one could EVER get all the rocks back out because of the baffles in the tank.

There appears to be three baffles in this Tank. One about 6" from the Filler End. Another one 6" further, and am assuming here, another one 6" further.

This is inferred because the tank is 24" long, and the first baffle is 6" and the second one is at 12". It stands to reason that the third one would be half way between the second one and the far end of the Tank.

Also, about using a Sealant: There would be absolutely no way to be sure that a Sealant would coat all the interior surfaces.

Am just going to have to trust that Lorrie's Tank is clean enough work properly. Don't know what else to do.

So now, the next thing is to paint the Tank. Have a spray can of Flat Black Enamel. Am going to use that on the Exterior. Hope there is enough for a couple of coats.

Have to clean up the Filler Tubes too. There are two of them. One is a 90 degree 2.25" diameter Elbow, and the other one is a 2.25" diameter straight section with a Gas Cap Locking End, and a Vent Tube.

The Gas Tank has a 2.25" Inlet, and a Vent Tube in it.

It also has a Pick-Up Tube Fitting and the hole into which fits the 385CF Sending Unit.

Anyway, am going to set up the saw horses, put the Gas Tank on them, wipe it down with paint thinner and paint that puppy.

Will let you know how it goes.

JC

_________________
Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor

Hey Danny,
An update on the Fuel Gauge:

Have removed the Gauge from the Dash. Have found all kinds of things out about it.

The Gauge is a Stewart Warner, Deluxe Series, 2-5/8" Diameter, Model 82413 Fuel Gauge, 240 Ohms = Empty, 33 Ohms = Full.

There are four threaded (8/32) fasteners on the back.

Two of the threaded fasteners are for mounting the Gauge, and are Grounded to the Case which is labeled "GND" (for Ground).

The other two threaded fasteners are labeled: "S" (for Sender) and "I" (for Ignition).

The threaded fastener labeled "I" has a Fiber Washer under a 3/8" 8/32 Nut. The Nut does NOT contact the Case.

Alas, the threaded fastener labeled "S" does NOT have a Fiber Washer under the 3/8" 8/32 Nut, and thus when the Sender Unit was hooked to that Terminal, it was Grounded.

Am going to put a Fiber Washer on that threaded fastener followed by a 3/8" 8/32 Nut to match the threaded fastener labeled "I".

There is another issue with which to deal: The Bulb Holder that goes into the back of the 82413 Unit, has come apart. Fortunately, there is another one of them on hand and just has to be spliced into place.

Also, am going to have to pull the Dash out to see where one of the Wires that was connected to the "I" Terminal of the 82413 Unit comes FROM.

It might be connected TO the "RUN Switch".

If it is, it is redundant because there is also another Wire that was connected to the "I" Terminal of the 82413 Unit that is spliced into the Wire FROM the RUN Switch TO the Ignition Terminal on the Alternator Regulator.. The Fuel Gauge would be getting its 12 Volts from THAT Wire when the Run Switch is ON.
That WOULD solve the problem were it not for the fact that the Sender Unit wouldn't work in the tank because of the Baffles. The Sender HAS to be a RH (Right Hand) instead of a LH (Left Hand) unit.

BTW, the 82413 Fuel Gauge and the 385CF Sender ARE made for each other.
Had the 82413 Gauge NOT been removed, and the missing Fiber Washer not discovered, the whole assembly would not have worked even if it was correctly wired.

Danny, this was all done so long ago, and I hadn't a clue as to what I was doing. And there was no Internet on which to do research. And there was no one to ask. I look back and marvel that ANYTHING worked!

So NOW, this S&W 82413 Fuel Gauge apparently works because when it was hooked up, and the RUN Switch was turned on, it went ABOVE Full. When the RUN Switch was turned off, it went to Full.

With the addition of the Fiber Washer under the 3/8" 3/32 Nut, and the "I" attached to 12 Volts, and the "S" attached to the 385CF Sender, and the Flange of the 385CF Sender attached to Ground, the 82413 Unit SHOULD work. Will just have to wait till tomorrow when the 385CF Unit arrives to see if it ACTUALLY does.

Lorrie's Gas Tank is dried out and painted Flat Black along with the Filler Pipes.

Have removed the Bendix Stromberg Carburetor and emptied the OLD Gasoline out of it.

Am going to be finding a Fiber Washer, and the NEW Bulb Holder, and doing some other stuff this afternoon.

Will keep you updated when progress is made.

Hope you are alright.

JC

_________________
Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor

Yep makes sense then, the way you had described the "test" you were actually doing, but not actually testing... Hope all is well once its all back together and wired correctly.

_________________
MRO....

Cheap, Fast, Reliable.... Pick 2...

I think I've said it before but I'll say again just to make sure - I'm no expert on the guage end of the system. Some are simple, some are different from what I've seen. Just keep in mind that it is possible that there is not supposed to be an insulating washer under the "S" terminal. Some are supposed to ground to the dash.

The ONLY way to test without a labratory is to hook it all up. It should read "Full" until you touch the sender end of the wire to ground at which time it should go to "Empty". If your's read Empty with the switch on I would be thinking the wire was grounded incorrectly. It seems to be doing what it should do just the way it is.

If it doesn't test correctly you may have to experiment and remove the washer or add the washer to see if it works correctly.

I'm thinking it's not supposed to have a washer but I could be wrong. It does warrant some investigation at least.

Danny

Hey Mr. OF,
Have the 82413 Gauge all set up to test with the 385CF Sender when it gets here.

Here is the Test Set Up.

Will connect the Sender Stud TO the "S" Terminal on the Gauge. Will have a Fiber Washer on the "S" Terminal to keep it from grounding to the case.

Will connect a 12 Volt Source TO the Input Terminal of a Switch.

Will connect the Output Terminal of the Switch TO the "I" Terminal on the Gauge.

Will connect the Flange of the Sender Unit TO a Ground on the Engine/Transmission.

Will connect the Case of the Gauge (GND) TO a Ground on the Engine/Transmission.

Here is the Test.

With the Switch set to the OFF Position, and the Sender Unit's Arm in the Down Position, the Gauge SHOULD read "Empty".

With the Switch set to the ON Position, and the Sender Unit's Arm in the Down Position, the Gauge SHOULD read "Empty".

Wiith the Switch set to the ON Position, and the Sender Unit's Arm is moved up, the Gauge Needle will hopefully ALSO move up.

With the Switch set to the ON Position, and the Sender Unit's Arm is moved down, the Gauge Needle will hopefully ALSO move down.

When the Switch is turned to the OFF Position, the Gauge Needle will hopefully move to the Empty position.
Oh, ME TOO!

If the above described set-up does as expected, then it will be a matter of reinstalling the Fuel Tank and wiring it as described.

Will let you know what happens.

JC

_________________
Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor

Hey Danny,
Without the Fiber Washer under the "S" Terminal, the Sending Unit's Sending Terminal would ALWAYS be Grounded.
Which is what is going to happen as soon as the Sending Unit gets here. See the previous post for the Test Set-Up.
Right.
Am thinking it IS supposed to have the Fiber Washer.
Right.

Will let you know what happens.

JC

_________________
Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor

Hey All,
Thursday Afternoon Update:

Removed the Steering Wheel to make access to the Dash Panel easier.

Removed the Dash Panel and removed the Tachometer.

Found that the Wire that was attached TO the Fuel Gauge's "I" Terminal was connected TO the Tachometer's "I" Terminal! Removed that Wire completely from the system.

Hooked one of the Run Switch's OUT Terminals TO the "S" (for Switch)Terminal on the Tachometer. THAT is FROM where the Tachometer will be getting its 12 Volts.

Hooked the Wire FROM the "-" Terminal of the Ignition Coil TO the "I" Terminal of the Tachometer.

The Ground for the Tachometer is through the Mounting Bridge which is in contact with the Dash Panel, and the Dash Panel is in contact with the Chassis Ground through its Mounting Screws.

The Tachometer SHOULD work now if it isn't somehow burnt out from being installed the way it was.

Have NOT A CLUE as to why it was hooked up that way.

As for the Fuel Gauge:

Am awaiting the arrival of the S&W 385CF Sending Unit which UPS Tracking says left Conroe, Texas at 5:45 a.m. "Out for Delivery". It should be here mid afternoon.

In the meantime, have fabricated a Fiber Washer to insulate the "S" Terminal of the Fuel Gauge, onto which fits the Wire FROM the Sending Unit.

Have gotten the NEW Bulb Fixture all ready to be spliced into the Lighting System on the Dash Panel.

Have traced the Sender Wire back to the "Stud Fitting" on the end that goes onto the Sending Unit, and have checked it for continuity. It is fine.

Have cleaned out the Stud Fitting with a 1/8" diameter roll of sandpaper twirled inside the Fitting. The inside of the Fitting is now BRIGHT Copper. Will be installing it with a bit of Dielectric Silicone.

Am going to use the Wire that was between the "I" Terminal of the Tachometer and the "I" Terminal of the Fuel Gauge as the Ground Strap that will goes from the Flange of the the 385CF Sending Unit to the Chassis Ground since it already has fittings on both of it's ends.

ORIGINALLY, the Ground for the Sending Unit was through the Mounting Screws that go through the Sending Unit's Flange into the Gas Tank. The Gas Tank in turn is in contact with the Mounting Straps. The Mounting Straps are in turn connected to the Chassis Ground. But all of that has, over the years, accrued some amount of rust, and the Tank has been painted and may not ground against the mounting straps, thus the reason for a "dedicated" Ground Strap from the Sending Unit's Flange to the Chassis.

Once the Sending Unit arrives, will be testing it to see if it works as expected.

Once it is confirmed that the Sending Unit works with the Fuel Gauge, it will be installed in the Gas Tank, along with the Fuel Pick-Up Tube, and its Hose Fitting.

The Fuel Gauge will then be reinstalled in the Dash Panel and properly connected.

The Dash Panel will then be reinstalled.

Then the Gas Tank will be installed in Lorrie and the Sender Wire and Ground Wire hooked up to the Stud and Flange respectively.

Am going to have to go to the Hardware Store and get the proper Fuel Hose to hook the Gas Tank to the Fuel Line going TO the Fuel Pump, and to connect the Vent Tube FROM the Fuel Tank to the Vent Tube on the Filler Pipe onto which fits the Gas Cap.

Then will connect up the Filler Pipes and Vent Hose to the Gas Tank.

Once all THAT is done, will reinstall the Distributory Cap, reinstall the Spark Plugs, connecting the Spark Plug Wires from the Distributor to the Spark Plugs and the Wire FROM the Ignition Coil TO the Distributor.

Will then do a "cold adjustment of the Rocker Arms.

Will then put Gas in the Gas Tank

Will then hook the "-" Battery Cable to the Battery's "-" Post.

Will then install the Bendix Stromberg Carburetor and attach all the Linkage.\

Before hooking the Fuel line to the Carburetor will crank the Engine with the Starter to purge all the OLD Gasoline from the Fuel Line between the Tank and the Fitting that goes into the Carburetor Float Bowl.

Will then hook up the Fuel Line to the Carburetor.

At this point, Lorrie should be ready to start up.

Once it has been confirmed that she will run and that the Valve Train is indeed being lubricated, the Valve Cover will be reinstalled and Lorrie should be ready to run.

Is anything being missed?

Comments welcome.

JC

_________________
Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor

Re-adjust the valve lash once hot... I do them hot and running.
DD