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 Post subject: Re: Al vs Fe
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 9:52 pm 
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Location: San Antonio, Texas
Car Model: 1964 Valiant
We're probably about 5 years away from most new vehicles being a hybrid. Nostalgia may kick in and some may want to invest in older cars - might be more true in trucks and Jeeps. The EPA has threatened to enforce inspections on diesel motors to verify that the emission system is 100 percent OEM. That may also occur with gasoline motors. There's still interest in new parts for flathead Ford 8s, air cooled VWs and a few other antique motors. I'd like a siamese big bore slant six block - not that I'd actually buy one. I believe the bore center spacing of the slant six is the same as the Ford modular v8. Some of those Fords have a 3.70-inch bore. Maybe the new Mopar inline six will be called a slant six, could lead to some new interest in the old motor. I don't think Ram trucks would be as popular if they hadn't revived the Hemi name.


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 Post subject: Re: Al vs Fe
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 6:13 am 
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Supercharged

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From the PRI Show (actually the acronym is short for Performance Racing Industry)

3D printing of sand cores is a method to have the foundry components made for a casting without hard tooling.

Hoosier Pattern is one such source for that technology. One would still need complete and accurate electronic math data that
fully describes the casting, inside and out. One would still need to apply foundry casting knowledge to the electronic data to
add in shrink and machine stock. But this gets that special some one much closer as the expense of hard tooling is advoided.
Subsequent design changes and improvements can be incorporated by revising the electronic math data.

The photo below shows a cylinder head core package that was 3D printed. A cover core would also be printed that makes the shape
of the top side of the casting.

The casting would still need to be machined and finished. It will require a machining fixture and CNC time.

Comparing an aluminum head casting to an aluminum head made from a billet.
The cast head could have full internal water jackets that allows for engine coolant flow for street use or race use.
The Billet head could be made with a top plate that allows some internal machining to provide
coolant flow, but even with an extreme amount of effort it would not approach the coolant flow
of a sand cored water jacketed head. The billet head also requires all the math data, but not the foundry shrink and finish stock additions.
The billet head requires a similar machining fixture as the cast head, with more CNC time but no foundry expense.

The billet head would be a drag race / alcohol fuel head only due to limited coolant flow
The cast head would be a street or a race head.

For either billet or cast another consideration would be design.
It would make no sense to replicate the existing iron slant head in aluminum.
There are less expensive ways to save vehicle weight. Consider that if a cross flow design was developed and the port size
and port locations were changed, the existing slant headers and intake manifolds may not fit up. Certainly if a four valve
layout was done, a new valve train would be needed. I am not saying that would be a complete show stopper. Perhaps
the 4 valve per cylinder valve train from a BMW could be used along with a BMW performance intake matched up to some
existing inline six header. It is all possible, just takes time and money.


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HP 2.jpg
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HP 3.jpg
HP 3.jpg [ 135.49 KiB | Viewed 5495 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Al vs Fe
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 12:10 pm 
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Quote:
I'd like a siamese big bore slant six block
Me too! I thought of this myself! Brilliant minds ......etc
Quote:
not that I'd actually buy one
Me neither! :D :D

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 Post subject: Re: Al vs Fe
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 12:19 pm 
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And that is why there are no fancy parts........ :mrgreen:

I know 1 siamese Slant block exists. I seen it with my own 2 eyes. I even know where it went.

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 Post subject: Re: Al vs Fe
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 1:30 pm 
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Location: San Antonio, Texas
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Quote:
And that is why there are no fancy parts........ :mrgreen:

I know 1 siamese Slant block exists. I seen it with my own 2 eyes. I even know where it went.
In my way of thinking, a "big bore" might be the impetus to produce a better head. I thought the block could be cast as two pieces. The siamese cylinder bores and deck cast as a single casting and the outer block and crankcase a separate casting. The siamese bores would fit like sleeves in stepped grooves. It might look sort of like an open deck, but not that open. The two pieces would be welded before it is machined. Core shift could be addressed by milling the castings if that were a problem. I suppose aluminum would weld better than cast iron. An alloy block could be die-cast but I'm sure the tooling costs would be very high for that, but maybe 3D printing can help there. With six separate bores cast integral you can drill steam holes which can't easily be done in a production casting.

Then you can add big valves without shrouding until someone built a head with LS or whatever chambers and ports. If only a couple dozen were all that were built Chrysler might give permission to use the name "Hemi", or you can figure out words for an acronym "HEME" or something like that. As long as I'm paying with Monopoly money its all okay.


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 Post subject: Re: Al vs Fe
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 3:12 pm 
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For a relatively small run in this particular case of a slant head, I would not try to stipulate casting mold methods or casting processes. Yes the 3D printer sand mold casting is trick and likely the future, but talking to the Edelbrock Foundry people yesterday, the actual casting is always the problem area. A ballpark quote for a single unmachined prototype head, supplied with all the design work in Cad, is around $10K, they didn't poo poo the idea, and the check writer owns all the rights.

So we are moving the goal posts for a block? :lol:

The limits of any near stock slant head, alum or otherwise will never IMO justify a block with much more capability in cubes or rpm's NA.


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 Post subject: Re: Al vs Fe
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 3:48 am 
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Almost no one has trouble with blocks. Also, if you change bore spacing and format, is it a Slant 6 anymore?

If Edelbrock is talking that kind of $$, I need to call them. Someone else talked to them last year and they had similarly encouraging things to say. Who knows...

Lou

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 Post subject: Re: Al vs Fe
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 6:23 am 
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Turbo EFI
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On a cross-flow head, where would the intake go? Would any body style have enough room on the passenger side?

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 Post subject: A Sunday haiku
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 9:55 am 
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If only we could
Make aluminum heads by
Talking about them


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 Post subject: Re: Al vs Fe
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 10:02 am 
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My bet is that maybe 2-3 people will buy a crossflow head and do the heavy work to make it fit the car and ancillaries. Sure, it would be great, but... Yes, I am not sure why I am still talking about this, but we can never completely control our brains!

Lou

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 Post subject: Re: Al vs Fe
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 10:23 am 
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Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:29 pm
Posts: 737
Location: Houston
Car Model: 68 Valiant
"If only we could
Make aluminum heads by
Talking about them"

This is why I make sure I always tell anyone in need that I am always 'there' for them. Of course, I just make sure I am nowhere near them when I say it, and I first make sure I have no money, skills, or other means with which to actually help them. That's just the sort of caring, generous, and humble person I am, and always being the first to offer things I can't and/or won't actually provide makes me feel better about myself.

P.S. ...love the haiku.


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 Post subject: Re: Al vs Fe
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 10:59 am 
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Supercharged
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Crossflow will fit with right side fenderwell headers.
Leave the intake on the left.


Greg

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 Post subject: Re: Al vs Fe
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 11:24 am 
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Turbo EFI
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Location: Brightwood, VA
Car Model: 1965 Plymouth Belvedere I
Wouldn't that cook the distributor, plug wires, oil filter, etc?

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 Post subject: Re: Al vs Fe
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 11:47 am 
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Board Sponsor & SL6 Racer

Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2002 7:57 pm
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Nope, they were all eliminated in this dream. :D :D

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2 Mopars come with Spark plug tubes. One is a world class, racing machine. The other is a 426 CI. boat anchor!
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 Post subject: Re: Al vs Fe
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 1:01 pm 
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Supercharged
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If you are making a cross flow head the plugs get relocated anyway!


Greg

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