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alloy head poll
https://slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=21767		 Page 3 of 4
Author:  mopardemon71 [ Sat Feb 10, 2007 10:28 pm ]
Post subject: 
Sorry ended that weird, head start up tooling. he says that his AMC stuff doesnt move that much and thats why it is a money up first thing. But I wouldnt do that unless there is a binding contract or a way that makes sure we get a head or our money back.
Author:  typhoon [ Sun Feb 11, 2007 12:02 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
What's my point?
That the Australian Ford "250-2V" aluminum replacement head is nearly ready for sale. Don't know if it's feasible, but you can use a Ford head gasket to check bolts, water, etc.
It's a miniature Cleveland head with inclined valves, high-ratio rockers, and cross-flow.

Image

You can also get the original 1980-1992? aluminum 250-2V head used from Oz.
You sure can get those heads from here in Oz, every Ford wrecker has piles of them in some corner, just waiting for teh aluminium recycler to pick them up.....

Regards, Andrew.
Author:  panic [ Sun Feb 11, 2007 6:25 am ]
Post subject: 
"binding contract"?

I don't know Russell, but I know contracts.
You give him $60,000. You get a binding contract.
What happens after 2 years and there is no product? You say "Give me the money back".
1. He says "sue me". You have to do this in the Superior Court where he is. You need an attorney. You have to pay the attorney - in advance. It takes several years for the suit to come to trial. The court costs are several thousand dollars. If you win, you still must collect the money yourself - the Court does not do this. if you cannot locate his assets, you get no money.
2. He says "Sure, minus my research and development time - here's $10,000."
3. He says "it will be another 2 years and another $60,000".

You won't get $60,000 anyway.
Why?
Because Russell won't make binding contracts with 30 people, and each buyer has no recourse against Russell - but they do against you. How can you guarantee money you don't have for a product you don't have?
Trust me, you don't want to do this. Ask your attorney how much it would cost to set up a company or foundation to run this.
If I were certain that Russell could produce a good product on time for that amount, I'd negotiate it with him, pay it myself, and sell the heads for $2,500. He told you "money up front" because there were already 6 guys there that day asking him to make aluminum heads for their Radio-Flyer coaster wagons, Edsels, etc. and asking for money up front is the easiest way to get rid of them without being rude.
What to do instead?
You show up in his office with $10,000 and tell him "you get more money when I see some results".
Author:  sandy in BC [ Sun Feb 11, 2007 7:33 am ]
Post subject: 
AGREED!
Author:  gmader [ Sun Feb 11, 2007 8:17 am ]
Post subject: 
After talking with Lou, I am withdrawing my interest on going with Indy. I suggest that anybody that is wanting to do this support "one of our own", and pm Dart270, as was previously suggested. I understand Indy's position on wanting money up front, but if they can't see the payback for the investment, it probably isn't for them.

I suggest that they have a financial disincentive to see slants become successful, as it cannibalizes their sales that would come from a built R or LA block being swapped into an A body. What our community is about is seeing the value in great engineering, a lot of home brewed performance, and little in the way of "cookbook hot rodding".
Author:  panic [ Sun Feb 11, 2007 9:28 am ]
Post subject: 
I agree - short-sighted opinions from the industry that hurt their own sales are more common than we realize, and stifle new product development frequently.
Can anyone actually superimpose a Ford 200/250 gasket over a slant head and see where the bolts, water etc. fall? It may be completely out of the question, since the 200/250 bore is 3.68", and the chamber width may be either too big or place 1 valve at the bore edge, etc. This assumes that since both the new aftermarket head and the original Oz head can fit the 200 the differences between the slant and the 200 are the major obstacle.
From another perspective: as was mentioned, a head can be made from plate at lower expense if the volume is lower. The work for startup is also very extensive, but at least there is no investment in patterns, molds, production runs, cooling problems, etc. Once a single chamber with ports has been faked up and flowed a CAD/CAM file can be generated largely from data off the original head. Once the file is done, the actual machining need not be done by a specialty manufacturer, but by any shop with the capacity - anywhere, to save shipping. Copies of the file could be sold under license permitting racers to alter the file and make their own mods and produce 1 head, etc.
A huge advantage to this is that when the first head is done if it doesn't seal, doesn't flow, overheats etc. the problems can be fixed without going back to square 1. The head can be fixed by taking it apart and welding it (which is why 6061 instead of 2024, 7075), then just modify the file. No heads, molds, patterns are thrown away.
No trying to make this more complicated, but once the head-as-plate is chosen, the possibilities are expanded a lot. This includes:
1. stock intake valve + very large exhaust valve for blower/turbo use; if 1.75" intake and 1.50" exhaust fit now, use 1.62" intake and 1.62" exhaust at the same positions
2. steep down-draft intake port for EFI
3. O-ring groove to re-inforce gasket for blower
4. extra accessory bosses to support turbo, Eaton brackets
5. larger intake port: taller and higher for more area without disturbing the spacing, easier to modify an existing manifold
Author:  mopardemon71 [ Thu Feb 15, 2007 7:41 am ]
Post subject: 
well sorry guys I tried but it seems that the slant will go down like the dinosaurs. I was told this would happen(besides the known anti alloy responses)by some other people. Oh well I guess its time for a V8 and quit this motor. I'd rather not spend my in a scrap yard with nothing to show for it and use a v8 and be able to get parts. look for my 2 super sixs on ebay soon. good luck to all.
Author:  gmader [ Thu Feb 15, 2007 7:59 am ]
Post subject: 
Or, you can PM Dart270, and talk to him about getting on board with a project that has greater likelihood of success.
Author:  SlantSixDan [ Thu Feb 15, 2007 8:17 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
well sorry guys I tried but it seems that the slant will go down like the dinosaurs. I was told this would happen(besides the known anti alloy responses)by some other people. Oh well I guess its time for a V8 and quit this motor. I'd rather not spend my in a scrap yard with nothing to show for it and use a v8 and be able to get parts. look for my 2 super sixs on ebay soon. good luck to all.
Uh...splain me, Lucy. "I can't have an aluminum head from Indy, so I'm selling all my slant-6s because nothing can be done with them", is basically what you're saying here.

And that's not true.

So...what gives?
Author:  slantzilla [ Thu Feb 15, 2007 10:47 am ]
Post subject: 
You can make an iron head better than you can probably use anyway, unless you are doing a very high-end race car. :shock:

Besides, if you really, really want an aluminum head, PM Dart270. :D
Author:  panic [ Thu Feb 15, 2007 1:39 pm ]
Post subject: 
That's an excellent point - unless the engine has so much capacity in RPM, strength, etc. that the ports can't keep up not much benefit over the weight loss, and even that is dependent on how much R&D can improve the aluminum OVER what can be done with maximum effort to an iron head.
Author:  Rick Covalt [ Thu Feb 15, 2007 2:37 pm ]
Post subject:  New Head?
It sounds as though Lou has something in the works. So Lou, when you got some info for the general public, we will be waiting with eager ears. I'm sure it will be good whatever it is.

Rick
Author:  Dart270 [ Thu Feb 15, 2007 10:28 pm ]
Post subject:  yes - serious inquiries only...
I am working with someone to get an aluminum head made. For those of you who know me, you know I would not bother to ask around unless I thought it was a serious project. I have inquired to several racers and folks who do not do internet and have a base of support.

If you are really interested in an improved design aluminum head, PM me for details. I will not answer a million questions, but I can fill you in.

The reason I have not posted generally is that there have been too many "let's do this thang" posts and no feasible action by producers OR potential buyers.

Thanks,

Lou
Author:  slantzilla [ Fri Feb 16, 2007 5:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: yes - serious inquiries only...
Quote:

The reason I have not posted generally is that there have been too many "let's do this thang" posts and no feasible action by producers OR potential buyers.

Thanks,

Lou
Lou, I hope I did not ruffle your feathers posting this, but that is exactly why I sent everyone to PM. I know you have a super serious effort going and did not want to deal with the normal bullshyt that the aluminum head talk always brings. :shock:

I am still waiting for my head that a member on another board promised me 5 years ago after he threatened to kill me for not believing he was casting one. :roll: :roll:
Author:  Dart270 [ Fri Feb 16, 2007 12:56 pm ]
Post subject: 
No feather ruffled! :)

Lou
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