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Water Injection?
https://slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26272		 Page 3 of 5
Author:  SlantSixDan [ Tue Dec 18, 2007 2:49 pm ]
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Isn't it possible that a little hydrogen in the mix will change the combustion in a positive way?
Oh, certainly. One of the reasons why a lot of people add alcohol to the water in their water injection systems, is because alcohol is combustible. But we have to be honest with ourselves: If we get a bigger bang in the combustion chamber because we've added some hydrogen, we can only truthfully say we got a bigger bang in the combustion chamber because we've added some hydrogen. We can't truthfully say we've increased the energy-efficiency of the car. This gets hoary when we use the bigger bang from hydrogen to cut back on the amount of gasoline or diesel we're burning, like that guy with his "amazing" diesel-sipping Hummer; we can only say we're burning less gasoline or diesel in the engine, not that we've made the vehicle more fuel-efficient.
Author:  BigBlockBanjo [ Tue Dec 18, 2007 7:33 pm ]
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I think some of you guys are looking at this differently than I am....
I believe it is wrong (at this point in time), to believe that absloute effciancy can be improved by adding hydrogen. Sam and Dan have stated enough about that.... :)
Sandy has thoughts like mine....the main purpose of water is to cool the chamber, allowing for more advance, boost, and the use of lower grade fuel. From a "fuel" standpoint you are burning the fuel more efficiently, because the timing/boost has more advantage, or the water slows the fuel burn down down. That was my idea on it, not that it could increase power greatly, "for free".
Author:  dakight [ Wed Dec 19, 2007 3:35 am ]
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I believe you've got it exactly right, as I stated in my first post in this topic. One may well end up with more power and better mileage but not because the water is breaking down into hydrogen and oxygen. You can get more power and better economy because the cooling effect of the water allows higher compression and more timing advance.
Author:  Sam Powell [ Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:41 am ]
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I am quite familiar with the smell of Ozone, having been in the model train world all my life. This smell is something different. I will demonstrate when you are up here. Dan, you have an open invitation to stop by when you are in town to see your Mom.

I never did say how I use the browns gas in the car. It is very simple. A second mason jar is placed under the hood with hydrolized water in it. Tube number one goes through the top and ends down at the bottom of the water. A second tube goes into the top but stops short of the water. This tube is then hooked to a vacuum hose. The vacuum sucks on the sealed system, and the only air it can draw in must be sucked through the water, where it picks up the free hydrogen ions trapped there. When you start the car, you can see the vacuum drawing bubbles through the bottom of tube one. There is a valve at the top to regulate the flow. The inventor of thisi system, Bill Lange, a very thoughtful, gentle soul retired in Florida said to regulate the flow until the bubbles were fast enough to see seperately but just slightly too fast to count. Not very scientific, but a good place to start.

The only things I can tell you now are these: The exhaust smells and sounds different. It is quieter. It also seems to pull more smoothly when driving. It starts off with less finessing of the dual friction clutch, which is typically a little eccentric in nature. I have absolutely no data yet to support anything. It will be at least a year or two before I can tell anything for sure. When all is done, I will be able to turn it off and on easily to check various performance variables.

My feeling about all this is that the Wright brothers did not create Boeing, but Boeing would not have happened without small time tinkerers and hobbyist fooling around with early flight. Maybe this will be nothing, but understanding it on a small time, grass roots level can do no harm that I can see.

I do have water injection as well, but this is not it. That is a seperate system, and used for now only under boost.

Sam
Author:  66aCUDA [ Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:54 am ]
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Sam
I think tinkering is what this hobby is all about.
Frank
Author:  SlantSixDan [ Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:38 am ]
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This smell is something different.
I imagine it's something akin to the smell of an overcharging battery.
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mason jar is placed under the hood with hydrolized water in it. Tube number one goes through the top and ends down at the bottom of the water. A second tube goes into the top but stops short of the water. This tube is then hooked to a vacuum hose. The vacuum sucks on the sealed system, and the only air it can draw in must be sucked through the water, where it picks up the free hydrogen ions trapped there. When you start the car, you can see the vacuum drawing bubbles through the bottom of tube one. There is a valve at the top to regulate the flow.
So it's basically an automotive bong, then. :shock: :mrgreen:


Where is this under the hood of your '69? I don't recollect seeing it...
Author:  Sam Powell [ Thu Dec 20, 2007 5:01 am ]
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So it's basically an automotive bong, then. :shock: :mrgreen:
Kind of makes you wonder what old Bill was doing when he thought this up.

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Where is this under the hood of your '69? I don't recollect seeing it...
It was not there when you saw the car. It is nested between the radiator and and the intercooler tube on the driver's side.

I think one of the political goals of some of the guys fooling around with alternatives is to try and drive a wedge into the monoply of the big oil companies. It does not matter if it is more efficient if you can source your energy from somewhere other than Big Oil. I think just the threat of this is enough for Big Oil to start looking into alterntives themselves, and maybe become a little less arrogant in the process. Of course it would still be Big Oil even if it is green, so I think we probably are pretty much stuck with Big Oil. Plus, I think this activity might spur a little creativity in the big auto companies as well.

Personally, I think the next big thing is going to be super efficient, low sulfer, direct injection deisels. These babies get double the mileage of current gasoline cars. If you double the mileage you really cut down on total carbon emisions. Of course when the gas mileage goes up, the price of fuel will likely go up to keep the total cost of driving about the same. But it is still a good idea in my opinion.
Author:  Dart270 [ Thu Dec 20, 2007 7:12 am ]
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I agree that diesels should and hopefully will be the next rational automotive adoption in this country. Notice I said adoption and not innovation, since these things have been around for many years!

Keep in mind that burning diesel fuel produces substantially more CO2 than burning gasoline (per gallon), so most of the increase in miles per gallon does not equate to less greenhouse gas emissions per gallon. This was pointed out to me by a good friend of mine - a previous science advisor to the Minister of Science in New Zealand. The energy content of diesel per volume is also substantially higher, so higher diesel prices also make sense if you ignore supply and demand pricing.

Of course, if biodiesel can be made efficiently, then that will be net carbon neutral and the cars will be able to burn it. My bets are on biodiesel to be a bigger factor than ethanol in coming years.

Lou
Author:  CARS [ Thu Dec 20, 2007 8:31 am ]
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This smell is something different.
I imagine it's something akin to the smell of an overcharging battery.
Or as we have all heard on the 24hrs of "A Christmas Story" on TNT when a "major award" lamp is plugged into a outlet along with the other 15 circuits already plugged in... once the ozone cleared the air the glow of electric sex was breathtaking.
Author:  dakight [ Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:17 am ]
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My reading leads me to the conclusion that many of these devices are electrolyzing a salt solution, not just water. The most common salt of course is sodium Chloride. When an NaCl solution is electrolyzed hydrogen is released at one electrode and Chlorine at the other. The remaing solution is a mixture of Salt ( NaCl ), and Caustic Soda, also know as Lye or Sodium Hydroxide ( NaOH ). I suspect these chemicals are responsible for the odor being described as pure hydrogen is odorless.

I agree that biodiesel, perhaps in a deisel-electric hybrid configuration, is the near to mid term most likely solution to reducing fossil fuel useage. Ethanol will still play a role, particularly if cellulosic ethanol production can be commercialized. Corn and Beet based ethanol is going nowhere because it is basically a shell game that does little or nothing to reduce the consumption of fossil fuels. Brazil has done it using sugar cane but we don't have the right climate and soil for large scale cane production.
Author:  66aCUDA [ Thu Dec 20, 2007 3:42 pm ]
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Hey David...I think we do have the climate and area to grow cane, the problem is profit with other crops. As for biodiesel it is VERY common here now. You used to get oil from MCDonalds,etc. But no more you have to buy it now. I also see Uncle Sam stepping in with the states to ban it because its not taxed. Some of the fellas here are running 100% veg. oil now with no alcohol. As long as its above 40 degrees they seem to do ok.
Frank
Author:  dakight [ Thu Dec 20, 2007 4:10 pm ]
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The taxation issue is going to have to be addressed everywhere. The problem with the current system is that as fuel economy goes up then the taxes collected per mile goes down which puts a crimp in budgets for hiway building and maintenance. I don't know what the answer will be but the per gallon excise tax is headed the way of the dinosaur.
Author:  Sam Powell [ Wed Dec 26, 2007 8:31 am ]
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I agree. Maryland is looking at going to toll roads for the major highways, one at a time. The smart card technology makes this pratical.

Sam
Author:  slantvaliant [ Wed Dec 26, 2007 9:11 am ]
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Of course, if biodiesel can be made efficiently, then that will be net carbon neutral and the cars will be able to burn it. My bets are on biodiesel to be a bigger factor than ethanol in coming years.
Lou
Agreed. I just hope they come up with a better source for biofuels than THIS.
Author:  dakight [ Wed Dec 26, 2007 10:43 am ]
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:shock::shock::shock:
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