Tom, what will be the origin of these rods, China?

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Official Cookie and Mater Tormentor.

I am really glad to see this coming through, and thanks for the guestemated ETA on the rods.



On the lenth I dont know what to say here. IMHO making the piston the best it can be and making the rod fit is what is needed. ALthough I myself had conserns about trying to work with other pistons, when you look at the big picture its really a waste of money to try to use them.


If I understand the pricing right, where talking the rods with good bolts, a good piston design, with pins, and a great set of rings for a $1000.00. This is something I hope you are able to pull off, a good package price I think will help more be able to go through with this.


But lets look at someone wanting to go a diff direction. Ok, the rods would then be $670.00 ( I believe that was right). So a set of cheap pistons are going to be what, maybe $150.00 to $250.00. Then a good set of rings are around $130.00 maybe, although you can go cheaper. Well if you add it up at the bottom of the pricing you would be into $950.00 dollars unless you really cheap out on the rings which could save a little bit more. But it could come out to even more depending on what the cheap pistons cost and how cheap a ring is run. If you go with a cheap enough setup to really even save over the price then the best your going to do is maybe come out around $850.00. But why spend this much on a setup and have cheap pistons and rings when just a little more would put you into a good piston ring setup. Maybe there will be a few that have already bought pistons and rings, but that would only be a few and will pass in time.



I think if you can come through with the possible price you have given then more will buy and the use of cheaper pistons and rings will not be needed. To me that is the most important part of this whole deal and making it possible for all to be able to afford the whole package is key. The price that was given I understand is a goal and you are hoping to be able to do this, not something set in stone. If it can come through at this price then I feel its a very fair price that should make it reachable for almost all. If not then stock rods and cheap pistons may be the best way for those that cannot.



Maybe I am looking at all this wrong, if so I do not wish to offend anyone, I am just trying to look at it in the best possible way. I just dont see how buying a set of rods for $670 and then buying cheap pistons & rings can make any sense, it just doesnt add up to me.


Myself I think a rod that is 7.100 gives a better piston. But no matter what is produced I will be buying a package if its within my reach on the budget. If its not within my budget, then I will save until I can buy one set for myself. But if it is, then maybe I can built two engines instead of one (although not at the same time).


As far as origin, many companies sale rods that start out as forgings coming off a boat. I have no problem with that and have seen many of these rods produce very good results. I dont know where K1's rods start out from, but many people run there rods and are pleased to have them. I will feel much better about building my slant six with these parts. Without something like this I keep looking over at my big block assortment and looking at how cheap stroker kits are for them. I thank Tom and all involved for what they are doing and look forward to when they are ready.



Jess

I'm lost ? I have not heard from tom or seen it in here $670 for rods. I think what he is saying is if he makes 2 or 3 different lengths the cost goes up. last time I spoke with Tom the price was under $500. The more we agree on one size the cheaper it is. With a 7 inch rod 225 and 198's benefit from that lenght. So everyone spoke up in the other post 98% said 7 inch rods. Thats what they are making. And as Brain said if these move good they will tend to our other needs down the road.

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it's like a vw, sounds like a million miles an hour but goes really slow. (for now)

Im still in agreement on the 7 inch rods and like the easy $1000 combo.
Frank

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Scrapple: Because a mind is a terrible thing to waste.
73 Duster - Race Car
66 Dart Wagon - DD
178" FED
82 D150
All Slant powered

I ain't none too smart 'bout what all you fellers is talkin' 'bout, but I want me a set so's I can run reeeeaaal fast!

Still interested... I agree with whatever Doc says!

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Rob

I’m Mater
The Kentucky Poser

Ok, so here's the final moment to shine. I can build a piston as "short as" 1.157" that still has a massive .300 top land and .155 2nd land. This would give us a 7.475 rod length and a piston that is .010 "in the hole" from a stock o.e. deck height.

Throw out everything you've heard about piston/ bore stability etc., these will work perfectly. As for the valve pockets, we've got them and we might as well put them in just to be safe if we can hit a target ratio of 10.25:1. For the few guys that want to run higher, you can mill the heads a lot. For the guys that want turbo low compression, I'd prefer to build you a proper piston as a set of customs or come out with a turbo piston later.

Just for the sake of round numbers. Lets go with a 7.450 rod and a 1.182 compression height piston.

If the top guys on the forum STILL prefer an 7", we'll go with that, but we're only going to get a chance to do it right the first time. As for the pricing of things, I should remind people here that "racer pricing" is usually higher than what things can be found for if you go searcing around on the web or look at Summit etc. You'll almost certainly be able to find these aty $1000 for rods/pistons/pins/rings etc.

Get back to me and I'll take a tally by Friday. If you prefer not to go against the opinions of the forum big dogs, but still want yourself counted, feel free to email me at bnutter@wiseco.com

Thanks everyone for your input! -Brian Nutter -Wiseco Piston

I dont understand paying $1000 for a "Chance" to get it right. It sounds like experimentation.

What exactly are the odds of this being right the first time?

Would you not be better off to sponsor an established racer to test this?

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Yeah....Im the one who destroyed this rare, vintage automobile.....

I'm new to buying parts this way so let me see if I have it right.
A dozen or so of us pre-order these parts. I assume there is a deposit. Then you guys make the parts and package them. At this point you have never installed any of these rods/pistons in a slant and there is no testing of it's limits. Its all threory right now based on your past experiance. Then I assume the remainder of the money gets paid and the parts will ship.
How long will this take? Companies like Clifford have charged peoples cards and took months (or longer) to ship the parts. What is your history about getting parts out?
What happens if there is a failure? What warrantee do you offer?
If you do offer a warrantee, is it time or milage or ???? Most of us take a year or so to build an engine( I usually do mine over the winter). If so an so builds his first and the block gets vented from a rod failure the rest of us who haven't asssembled our engines yet are going to be sick to our stomachs

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Chris'
Autobody
Restoration
Service

I would love to get my hands on a piston / con rod set-up like that.
( This give us a 1.8 rod ratio on a 225 and a 2.05 on a 198! )

We would have to "trust" that the piston design would be stable on the 4.125 (and up to 4.5) stroke but that rod ratio sure helps.
The good news is that there are a lot of long stroke "monster motors" out there these days so i am sure the piston makers have some data on piston stability. There may be some new considerations based on the small (3.445) bore size combined with the long stroke.
DD

The way I see it, 7 inches is plenty long for this engine. Go with the 7.45" rod and you wouldn't be able to make a piston short enough to stroke it to 4.5". Also, please give us a very generous skirt on these pistons. Our slants are known to last forever. I wouldn't want to do anything to change that.

By the way... Good work on this project. I'm very excited about it. Count me in!

I'm fine with any rod too as long as there is room to make a 8:1cr turbo piston. Let's just make a decision already.

All racing is an experiment to some degree but with Wiseco, you have the backing of about 62 years experience in making pistons. While K1 has only been in business for 3 years, you have the backing of my 27+ years experience in rod design and manufacturing. Also, I can honestly say that I have designed and made about 150 different rods in the last 3 years and I am not aware of any failures so this isn't really a test. As for a warrantee, virtually no one provides a warrantee for race parts. The reason for this is, once the parts leave the factory, they are completely out of our control and are subject to variables such as who installs them and how they do it, possible over revving, someone adding nitrous when the parts were designed to be run in a naturally asperated application etc..

There are a lot of race parts being made in China. Some are good, some are not so good. A lot of it depends on the design, where they are finished and the quality demands of the company that is bringing them in. We do have a lot of the machining done in China but we have the highest quality standards of any of the rod and crank companies doing this and every part is 100% magna flux inspected to insure there are no cracks or flaws that could cause failure. We also do not simply send a part over there to be copied. Every rod we make is our own design, is different for each individual application and based on several (27+) years of rod manufacturing experience. We also finish every rod here in the U.S. in our shop and use only ARP fasteners. Our goal is not to just send you a part and get your money. If it was, we would not have spent all of this time gathering data. Our mission is to provide the highest quality part we can make and do it at an affordable price.

Well I hate to say this but I would like to go with a 7 inch rodand a matching piston. It will have more use to more "stock" engines than something longer. Now if Tom were to make two lenghts of rods, then racer boys go long and us street guys stay fairly "stock" then ok. This seems to be heading in a racing engine only type direction from the way I see it.

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it's like a vw, sounds like a million miles an hour but goes really slow. (for now)

FYI,
The only "stock" application for the 7.005 con rod is when it is used in a 198 engine to get you a "factory engineered" 8.4 to 1 compression ratio. The last time I checked, not many people were building "tall block" 198's.

As already noted, a slightly longer "7 inch" rod, works out better when used with a 225 (4.125 stroke) crank and the shorter 2.2 piston. We currently have a chance to "juggle" the rod lenghts and piston compression heights around in order to get the best mix of rod ratio and piston weights. Past "long rod" 225s were simply a product of "what's available that kinda works" instead of a well engineered combination.

From everything discussed, it looks like a 7.030 - 7.050 con rod c to c is about right. This should get the piston to the top of the bore, on a long rod 225 and also give a 198 a slight increase in compression, with-out head or block milling.
DD