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Billet Crossflow cylinder head
https://slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=36905		 Page 3 of 5
Author:  CNC-Dude [ Wed Oct 09, 2013 6:10 pm ]
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If I had been able to have stayed longer also, that could have prompted more discussion too, but my schedule for that day just didn't allow me too. I know that the time for the banquet already had been committed to other topics of discussion beforehand. But I agree also, making it appeal to a broader group is going to provide the best all around strategy.
Author:  Sam Powell [ Fri Oct 11, 2013 4:23 am ]
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It would be easier to install the entire drive train from my BMW 328 into my Dart. It seems that if there were a cheap, creative solution to getting an efficient, high flowing, crossflow head on a slant one of the geniuses on this forum would have have figured it out by now. It is just a great shame that Mopar did not produce such a head before the let this engine go from production.

Sam
Author:  slantzilla [ Fri Oct 11, 2013 7:29 am ]
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Quote:
If I had been able to have stayed longer also, that could have prompted more discussion too, but my schedule for that day just didn't allow me too. I know that the time for the banquet already had been committed to other topics of discussion beforehand. But I agree also, making it appeal to a broader group is going to provide the best all around strategy.
The only way to get anywhere with this project is to just build a head the way YOU think it needs to be built and sell it.

Honestly, the market is so small trying to get a consensus is an exercise in futility.
Author:  Rick Covalt [ Fri Oct 11, 2013 10:23 am ]
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Quote:
just build a head the way YOU think it needs to be built and sell it.
There is a lot of truth in that statement I believe.

Good luck
Author:  CNC-Dude [ Fri Oct 11, 2013 11:22 am ]
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Well I already know how to build it, I just wanted to see if there was going to be any support or "real"interest in it if I do. I'm not going to spend time and effort to design and make Slant stuff if its not going to be supported.
Author:  RumDungeon [ Fri Oct 11, 2013 11:42 am ]
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As long as I am able to use normal slant intakes/headers, and readily available valves/rockers/shafts etc... then I am in for 1 head. If its going to be a bunch of one off parts I am not.
Author:  Rick Covalt [ Fri Oct 11, 2013 1:31 pm ]
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Quote:
I just wanted to see if there was going to be any support or "real"interest in it if I do.
Maybe talk with Lou and get his list of 20 people and I bet if the price is in the same ballpark and it flows comparable to a ported head right out of the box, you may still have 20+ takers.

But maybe the smaller items for the Slant 6 would be a better starting place? The head will be super cool, but it will also be a large expenditure. The truth is with 98% of us being bracket racers an aluminum head is a luxury not a necessity. It is something that has been longed for by a few, but I still view it as a very cool luxury. Now once they come out I may feel they are more of a necessity and that I need one too.

Keep pluggin away at it Scott. :lol: :lol:

Rick
Author:  CNC-Dude [ Fri Oct 11, 2013 7:54 pm ]
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I think a big advantage for the Slant crowd is that I own the foundry, and I can do all the patternmaking and development inhouse, plus I like you guys! So, I have no expectation of recouping my investment, just offering a product to a group of guys that could likely have never had one if I didn't make it.
But yes, other smaller items are likely to be more suitable for a larger number of users, so I will continue to move forward on those items as well.
Author:  RumDungeon [ Fri Oct 11, 2013 8:29 pm ]
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Quote:
I think a big advantage for the Slant crowd is that I own the foundry, and I can do all the patternmaking and development inhouse, plus I like you guys! So, I have no expectation of recouping my investment, just offering a product to a group of guys that could likely have never had one if I didn't make it.
But yes, other smaller items are likely to be more suitable for a larger number of users, so I will continue to move forward on those items as well.
You sir, are awesome! You've got my support,and $$$ when the time comes!
Author:  CNC-Dude [ Fri Oct 11, 2013 9:07 pm ]
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Thanks Nirvana, I had a mentor of mine some years back that I greatly respected tell me something that keeps popping back into my mind when these types of situations arise. "If you want to screw up a hobby, turn it into a job!" So with that, I have tried to keep this product making fun and not try to make it a job, I already have a day job!
Author:  Sam Powell [ Sat Oct 12, 2013 4:44 am ]
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You will never come up with a design that will please 100% of the potential customers. But if you build it, it would still be the best thing out there, and would be supported, in my opinion. We certainly "make-do" with a great deal of stuff that is not ideal. But slanters above all know how to adapt and cope. Don't wait until everyone agrees with your concept.

I can tell you the slant six in my BMW is one amazing engine. It has a hemi head design, with the intake on the driver's side and the exhaust on the passenger side. It revs effortlessly to 6500 rpm. It is a 3 liter engine with aluminum head. It has gobs of low end torque that never makes you wish for a more. And this is not an M engine which has a full 100 more HP.

I think a good head such as is on the BMW slant would go a long way towards making the Mopar slant run like the BMW. Now, the BMW is an overhead cam design with has, I think, 4 valves similar to the Supra engine mentioned by someone earlier. Multi valve designs provide superior breathing in part because the valves are smaller and there is less shrouding of the combustion chamber when the valves open, plus you can get more of the chamber opened up for flow. Four small valves = more square inches of area than 2 large ones. So unless the design incorporates over head cams there is still the limit of 2 valves per chamber. But it would be better flow to have it move across the chamber, in one side and out the other.

Sam
Author:  slantzilla [ Sat Oct 12, 2013 4:00 pm ]
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Quote:
Well I already know how to build it, I just wanted to see if there was going to be any support or "real"interest in it if I do. I'm not going to spend time and effort to design and make Slant stuff if its not going to be supported.
This is not going to make me popular, but I will say it anyway. When you talk about building an aluminum head there are always a bunch of people who will say they want one. They appear every time the subject comes up month after month, year after year. The reality is that most of them will not have the means to buy one if it is ever built, and what they want varies so widely that as a manufacturer you'd want to shove a steak knife through your own heart, or they would expect you to sell it to them for 1/3 of what it costs to build.

OK, throw away the top 80% of your fan base, and what is left is MAYBE 20 people who will actually buy your head. Reality is that quite a few of the serious racers who would have been real players have either quit racing or changed to a combination that made an alloy head unnecessary or illegal.

There have been more than one serious attempts at getting alloy heads built, but for one reason or another they fell by the wayside. IIRC, when the deals were going together the magic number to break even seemed to be 20 sold heads at around $3K each, and that was a while ago. I believe the last foray had promises of a deposit for 18 heads.

So where does that leave you as a businessman? As a moneymaker it is a horrible risk. Howard Davis took the bull by the horns and built one the way he wants because he and his clan flat out LOVE Slants. As a businessman you'll be hard pressed to get your creditors to accept a bag full of love for your debts I'd guess.

Where does this pile of tripe lead to? Simple, come up with a viable design and tell the world you are taking orders. Then you will see how many real customers you have and can proceed at your own risk.

You asked. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Author:  DusterIdiot [ Sat Oct 12, 2013 5:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Yep...
Well put 'zilla...this is what happened to Andy and the plate/brackets that he had worked on, lots of "I want one" then when the time came the minimum run was 10 and only 5 sold (the rest sold after quite a while of gathering dust on the shelf...most are still on the end users shelves gathering dust)...

The other issue is the R&D part, there were fitment issues with Andy's plate and it took a little bit of work to get it 98% usable, but your end users will want a plug and play...so that means you'll have to build an engine or two and run them on a dyno and see if it will take anything from the 9:1 street CR to a fairly common "all race" ratio of 12:1, and the pounding at 6000 rpm on a 225 to 10,000 on a 170. Given that the company that made a bucket cammer kit for the Ford 302 (uses stock heads, kit included buckets, adaptor, front engine pulleys, 2 ferrari cams for each head and the gilmer belt), they lost a good number of heads and engines getting the setup to run reliably at 10K on a Boss 302 for T/A racing purposes. (Similar story: The Proline Fuel setups were neat but also suffered from end user tuning in different areas of the US and the feedback was negative that they stopped offering the dual weber kits since they couldn't support the end users).

:lol:

-D.Idiot
Author:  SlantSteve [ Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:44 pm ]
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I think the two previous posts make very good points.....Take a look at the CHI Aussie hemi 6 alloy head project,I think that would be a good design basis for a slant head,raised ports,commonality with all bolt on parts and an improved combustion chamber. If you go cross flow you can pretty well kiss any sales for RHD vehicles goodbye,the steering box would make headers almost impossible to fit. Then the is the guy who had good pipes,exhaust system,and really doesn't want to replace all that just to go a cross flow head....he might be good if it was a bolt on deal,maybe. Speaking to the CHI guys they say never again for a small production deal,they now do some very nice Ford Cleveland style heads ,still a tough market,but at least there are guys out there prepared to throw decent coin at their engine builds.
Author:  Dart270 [ Sun Oct 13, 2013 10:17 pm ]
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To echo some of the comments here:

If it were easy, someone would have done it already. I would love to talk about a head and do appreciate you, Scott, bringing that chev head to the banquet. I agree that starting with some part that is less complex first, to gauge overall community interest, would be a good idea. Someone should probably do this because the love the engine or community, not to make a lot of money.

How many would sell would really depend on price and compatibility. I think I have a decent handle on what the community will tolerate, at least on an initial offering of a head. After that, the market could grow if the product is successful. I have talked to almost every major player in Slant 6 racing in person, and many who are not racers.

Personally, I would not bother with crossflow and I think the gains would not be huge.

Yes, best thing is to speak to a few knowledgeable people, come up with a design that makes sense to them, and do it. Polling every person who thinks they might someday buy such a thing is pointless.

Dennis and others are pissed because we have had countless talkers say they will "just make one" and no results. Results are what matters in this world, not talk. I had a go at it 5 yrs ago and failed due to human issues, but maybe I'll try again later...

Lou
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