Slant Six Forum
https://slantsix.org/forum/

Charging problem?
https://slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=45167		 Page 3 of 4
Author:  wjajr [ Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:43 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Then I'm narrowing my focus on the readings you got in that test. The voltage you see at the "IGN" terminal of the voltage regulator should be very close to the voltage you see across the battery. Did you ever retry the jumper wire test previously gone awry?

Today’s test results:

Battery to IGN @ regulator & battery (+to-):

1000 rpm 600 rpm
Lights on---14.0v ----battery = 15.3v---- 11.8v---B=13.0v
Off----------14.3v------------B=-14.3v----13.3v---B=14.3v

Disconnected #30 feed to headlights:

Batt terminal to alternator case:
15.4v @ 1000 rpm------14.5v @ 600 rpm

Battery minus to plus 15.4v @ 1000 rpm—14.3v @ 600 rpm

Battery to IGN of regulator:

14.2v @ 1000 rpm-----13.4 @600 rpm

Jumper from plus battery to IGN of regulator.

Engine off 13.9v

Lights off @ 1000 rpm IGN= 14.2v--waging amp gage
Lights off @600 rpm ING=14.2v -- waging amp gage

Lights on @ 1000 rpm 14.2-14.5v--waging amp gage
Lights on @ 600 rpm 13.0 v—waging amp gage

Across battery lights on
@ 1000 rpm 14.2-14.6v
@600 rpm 13.0
Author:  Slanted Opinion [ Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:05 am ]
Post subject: 
Don't forget that a quick way to check for voltage drops (a condition where high resistance causes the voltage to drop as it passes through the wire) is to take a measurement with your meter leads connected to both ends of the wire in question.

For instance, if you place one meter lead on the + of the battery, and another on the BATT terminal on the alternator you should, in a perfect world, have a reading of zero.

If there was a problem with that wire or a connector, you would read voltage on the meter. Whatever number you read would be the "voltage drop" across the wire.

Remember that voltage drop readings only work when things are on and running... no applied load means no voltage drop reading.

Try this: Connect one meter lead to the (-) terminal on the battery. Touch the other one to the ground screw on the case of the regulator. You should have a reading of zero.

You can quickly and easily test other circuits this same way. Is there a voltage drop between the (+) terminal of the battery and the IGN terminal on the regulator?

Sorry, don't mean to step into Dan's advice thread! If my post distracts you from the process, ignore it for now!

:D

- Mac
Author:  emsvitil [ Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:43 am ]
Post subject: 
I have to ask............


How accurate is your voltmeter?
Author:  SlantSixDan [ Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:14 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Battery to IGN @ regulator & battery (+to-):

1000 rpm 600 rpm
Lights on---14.0v ----battery = 15.3v---- 11.8v---B=13.0v
Off----------14.3v------------B=-14.3v----13.3v---B=14.3v
Please stop trying to make charts and tables like this. It does not work and leads only to illegible jumbles of numbers. :-( Just list your results line by line.
Quote:
Batt terminal to alternator case:
15.4v @ 1000 rpm------14.5v @ 600 rpm
Battery minus to plus 15.4v @ 1000 rpm—14.3v @ 600 rpm
In both cases, first number is definitely too high, second number is suspiciously high.
Quote:
Battery to IGN of regulator:

14.2v @ 1000 rpm-----13.4 @600 rpm
That sounds like battery negative to regulator IGN terminal, with jumper in place from battery positive to regulator IGN terminal. If that is the case, those are sound-looking numbers.
Quote:
Engine off 13.9v
Huh? Measured where? That's way too high for an engine-off reading anywhere in the system. Are we sure your test voltmeter is accurate...?
Quote:
Lights off @ 1000 rpm IGN= 14.2v--waging amp gage
Lights off @600 rpm ING=14.2v -- waging amp gage

Lights on @ 1000 rpm 14.2-14.5v--waging amp gage
Lights on @ 600 rpm 13.0 v—waging amp gage
It's difficult to tell what "IGN" means here. Please just spell out in full sentences what is hooked up where, and where each probe of the voltmeter is located. You are not being charged by the word or by the letter to post here, eh! Image

Quote:
Across battery lights on
@ 1000 rpm 14.2-14.6v
@600 rpm 13.0
If these figures are with the jumper connected from battery positive to regulator IGN, they are much closer to what you ought to be seeing -- though 14.6v is still higher than one generally sees in this system. Let's add another jumper: disconnect the wire from the regulator FLD terminal, disconnect the other end of that same wire from the alternator FLD terminal, and run a test lead from the regulator FLD to the alternator FLD. Leave the jumper from battery poz to regulator IGN in place and see what happens.

And oh by the way, check the integrity of the connection from the alternator's other FLD terminal to ground.
Author:  SlantSixDan [ Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:16 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Sorry, don't mean to step into Dan's advice thread! If my post distracts you from the process, ignore it for now!
Eh? Naw! It's not "my" thread. It's WJAjr's thread. I don't have any kind of a monopoly on advice, and your description of checking for voltage drop across a wire is good, sound, helpful advice.
Author:  olafla [ Tue Jun 14, 2011 6:18 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
For your viewing pleasure:
Always a pleasure to see a clean installation in a clean engine room, Bill!

Olaf.
Author:  wjajr [ Tue Jun 14, 2011 6:39 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Engine off 13.9v
Huh? Measured where? That's way too high for an engine-off reading anywhere in the system. Are we sure your test voltmeter is accurate...?
This is negative battery terminal to IGN terminal of regulator via jumper: 13.9v

I don’t know present accuracy of this particular VOM. I have another with rather short leads that won’t lend its self to reaching across engine bay without additional jumpers.

Voltage is always running up & down several tents of a volt, I think due to an unsteady idle speed, or as you have proposed a $#!+ rebuilt alternator… I have tried to narrow down voltage readings to something displayed 80% of the time ignoring 100ths. A dampend analog needle would be easer to average out these fluttering digital readouts.


Battery to IGN @ regulator test sequence:

Measuring negative battery terminal to IGN terminal of regulator with headlights on at 1000 rpm = 14.0v. Battery + to- at 1000 rpm = 15.3 v.

Negative battery terminal to IGN terminal of regulator with lights off at 1000 rpm = 14.3v Battery + to- at 1000 rpm = 15.2v.

Negative battery terminal to IGN of regulator with lights on at 600 rpm = 11.8v. Battery +to- reads 13.0v.

Negative terminal to IGN of regulator with lights off at 600 rpm = 13.3v. Battery +to- = 14.34v



Disconnected headlight # 30 test sequence:

Alternator only; output terminal to alternator case at 1000 rpm = 15.4v.

Alternator only; output terminal to alternator case at 600 rpm = 14.5v.

+ to – battery voltage at 1000 rpm = 15.4v.
+ to - battery voltage at 600 rpm = 14.3v.

Battery + terminal to regulator IGN terminal at 1000 rpm = 14.2v.
Battery + terminal to regulator IGN terminal at 600 rpm = 13.4v.


Jumper feeding ING termaial of regulator:


Battery to regulator IGN jumper replacing car’s wire harness connection with headlights reconnected to alternator:

With engine off battery voltage reads 13.9 v

With lights off at 1000 rpm voltage between battery – to regulator IGN terminal = 14.2v. Battery voltage + to – terminal 14.2

With lights off at 600 rpm voltage between battery- to regulator IGN terminal = 14.0v. Battery voltage + to – terminal = 14.0v.

With lights on at 1000 rpm voltage between battery – to regulator IGN terminal = 14.2 to 14.5v.

With lights on at 600 rpm voltage between battery – to regulator IGN terminal = 13.0v.
Author:  wjajr [ Tue Jun 14, 2011 7:06 pm ]
Post subject: 
I compared voltage reading of battery from VOM I used for recent regulator tests with a little pocket Radio Shack multimeter jobbie: the one with the too short 8â€￾ leads.

The meter I have been using read 13.94V
Radio Shack 13.86v
0.008 V difference

At an AC 120 V near by duplex receptacle in the “Man Caveâ€￾:

Meter I have been using reads 123.1 to 123.2 V

Radio shack reads 123.2V

I’m thinking that these two meters read close enough for this project.

[img]http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm87/wjajr/Dart%20electrical/100_1480.jpg[/img]
Author:  wjajr [ Tue Jun 14, 2011 7:25 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Quote:
wjajr wrote:
For your viewing pleasure:
Always a pleasure to see a clean installation in a clean engine room, Bill!

Olaf.
It’s odd that you referred to the engine compartment as an engine room like a Navy man. LOL Thanks for the white glove assessment.

The young people at car shows often think that my little old Dart is a boat, but to me, it is just a compact.

A 67 Imperial was 1900 pounds heaver, and 29.3 inches longer than an itty-bitty little Dart.


Bill
Author:  olafla [ Wed Jun 15, 2011 3:51 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
It’s odd that you referred to the engine compartment as an engine room like a Navy man. LOL Thanks for the white glove assessment.
We foreigners don't always pick the correct words, you know....
Quote:
A 67 Imperial was 1900 pounds heaver, and 29.3 inches longer than an itty-bitty little Dart.
Re BIG: I once had a 9-seater 1961 Ford Galaxy Country Squire...

Olaf.
Author:  wjajr [ Wed Jun 15, 2011 4:46 pm ]
Post subject: 
Olaf:
Quote:
Re BIG: I once had a 9-seater 1961 Ford Galaxy Country Squire...
For the heck off it I looked up your old Country Squire, because those early 60’s full sized Fords did look big compared to the late 50’s full sized Fords:

Weight with V8 = 4060 lbs
Length = 209 inches
Wheel Base = 119 inches

But, as the sixties rolled on into the seventies, that ‘61, became small in comparison. As an example a 1975 full sized Ford Country Squire Wagon grew to:

Weight = 4845 lbs.
Length = 226 inches
Wheel Base = 121 inches

I miss those big land yachts, and larger parking spaces that used to be plentiful.

Bill
Author:  SlantSixDan [ Wed Jun 15, 2011 8:51 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
negative battery terminal to IGN terminal of regulator via jumper: 13.9v
With engine running, I wouldn't blink at that. With engine off (and surface charge drained off from battery as previously described) I would say that's unrealistically high.
Quote:
negative battery terminal to IGN terminal of regulator with headlights on at 1000 rpm = 14.0v. Battery + to- at 1000 rpm = 15.3 v.
15.3v is too high. For some reason, you are not getting appropriate regulation of the line voltage.
Quote:
Negative battery terminal to IGN terminal of regulator with lights off at 1000 rpm = 14.3v Battery + to- at 1000 rpm = 15.2v.
15.2v is too high.
Quote:
Negative battery terminal to IGN of regulator with lights on at 600 rpm = 11.8v. Battery +to- reads 13.0v.

Negative terminal to IGN of regulator with lights off at 600 rpm = 13.3v. Battery +to- = 14.34v
You've consistently got some pretty serious voltage drop going on, it looks like -- the regulator's IGN terminal should see actual line voltage (perhaps minus a tenth or two or three). You're dropping more than a volt, which is why I suggested putting a jumper in place from battery poz to regulator IGN.

The reason why this is significant is that the regulator "looks" at the voltage on the IGN terminal to determine what to send to the alternator's field circuit. If the regulator sees less than its setpoint on the IGN terminal, it will try to ramp the voltage up until it sees its setpoint. If what it sees at the IGN terminal is less than actual line voltage, then it will raise alternator output (alternator permitting) until it sees what it wants to see on the IGN terminal, at which point the line voltage will be too high. My prime suspects are still the wiring from ignition switch to regulator, the ignition switch itself, and that "remanufactured" alternator which seems to have characteristically weak low-RPM output despite its small-diameter pulley.
Quote:
Disconnected headlight # 30 test sequence:

Alternator only; output terminal to alternator case at 1000 rpm = 15.4v.

Alternator only; output terminal to alternator case at 600 rpm = 14.5v.
+ to – battery voltage at 1000 rpm = 15.4v.
+ to - battery voltage at 600 rpm = 14.3v.
So, no substantial change by disconnecting headlamp relays. No surprise; they were never to blame. 15.4v is still too high, and 14.3-14.5v is still suspiciously high at 600 rpm.
Quote:
Battery + terminal to regulator IGN terminal at 1000 rpm = 14.2v.
Battery + terminal to regulator IGN terminal at 600 rpm = 13.4v.
Mmm…don't think so. If you measure from battery poz to regulator IGN, you should see only the voltage drop -- which in your case looks to be slightly over 1v from previous tests. Did you perhaps mean this is what you read from battery neg to regulator IGN?
Quote:
Jumper feeding ING termaial of regulator:
Battery to regulator IGN jumper replacing car’s wire harness connection with headlights reconnected to alternator:

With engine off battery voltage reads 13.9 v
Sounds like surface charge not drained off before test.
Quote:
With lights off at 1000 rpm voltage between battery – to regulator IGN terminal = 14.2v. Battery voltage + to – terminal 14.2

With lights off at 600 rpm voltage between battery- to regulator IGN terminal = 14.0v. Battery voltage + to – terminal = 14.0v.

With lights on at 1000 rpm voltage between battery – to regulator IGN terminal = 14.2 to 14.5v.
AHA! Now we are getting somewhere. Finally some numbers that are in the close vicinity of what they're supposed to be. It means excessive resistance in your ignition switch and/or the wiring from the ignition switch to the regulator. Use your wiring diagram to figure out which wire exiting the bulkhead disconnect goes to regulator IGN.

Drain the surface charge off the battery (engine off/headlights on for 2 minutes, then headlights off).

Key "on", engine stopped. Take a reading across the battery + and - and note it.

Leave the bulkhead disconnect plugged in and backprobe the appropriate wire at the bulkhead with the black voltmeter probe. Put the red probe on the battery poz. Take note of what you read on the voltmeter.

Unplug the disconnect and probe the same socket (on the firewall, not on the plug you removed from it). Take note of what you read on the voltmeter.
Quote:
With lights on at 600 rpm voltage between battery – to regulator IGN terminal = 13.0v.
Not as high as you'd like, but not abnormal with Chrysler alternators of that era, especially once they've been "remanufactured".
Author:  wjajr [ Thu Jun 16, 2011 7:27 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Battery + terminal to regulator IGN terminal at 1000 rpm = 14.2v.
Battery + terminal to regulator IGN terminal at 600 rpm = 13.4v.


Mmm…don't think so. If you measure from battery poz to regulator IGN, you should see only the voltage drop -- which in your case looks to be slightly over 1v from previous tests. Did you perhaps mean this is what you read from battery neg to regulator IGN?



No, your right. Has to be ( –) battery terminal to IGN of regulator; typo.

I did some contortionist voltage drop checks under dash.

After surface charge correction with headlights on two minutes:

Key on, no voltage drop between battery minus and IGN 1 on ignition switch. Conductors & connections all good from bulkhead connector “Qâ€￾ engine side to IGN switch. I removed female brass at ING switch, and crimped & cleaned connections just to eliminate any looseness.

IGN switch shows no voltage drop measured between BATT terminal and IGN 1.
Batt terminal, and Start showed 0.5 volt drop.
Battery to AMP meter showed a 0.5 v drop to both sides of amp gage. I suspect fusible link

Battery (–) to IGN regulator terminal with engine off shows a 1 volt drop, but I discovered a strange condition during this test.

I have a green knob battery master switch connected to neg. battery terminal. When that switch is closed, voltage measured between neg. battery terminal, and regulator IGN terminal shows a one volt drop. When the switch is open, not connecting to engine block and all ground loops, the voltage drop goes away reading within a few 100th of a volt of battery’s voltage.

This has me confused, as any grounding points along the equipment grounding loop including regulator’s case, as well as any metal anywhere in engine compartment all show the same voltage with VOM probe on + battery terminal as battery + to – voltage reading.
Author:  wjajr [ Fri Jun 17, 2011 10:22 am ]
Post subject: 
Dan,

More testing, this morning, looking for points of voltage drop, resulted in cleaning one connection in battery to block ground circuit at block side of cut-off switch that yielded about half a volt back. Recall: I have a green knob battery master switch connected to neg. battery terminal. When that switch is closed, voltage measured between neg. battery terminal, and regulator IGN terminal shows a one volt drop. When the switch is open, not connecting to engine block and all ground loops, the voltage drop goes away reading within a few 100th of a volt of battery’s voltage.

With engine off, oil pressure light disabled, electric choke disabled, dome light disabled, IGN ballast resistor unplugged, IGN switch installed, there is only .34V drop between Battery(-) and IGN regulator now. One tenth volt drop is at bulkhead connector â€￾Nâ€￾.

When I reconnected electric choke, with ING switch on, there is now is a 1.0 volt drop between battery (-) and IGN regulator. I’m guessing having coke resistance coil, and IGN ballast in parallel is causing the additional voltage drop.

To be clear, coke heater is feed from “Nâ€￾ BH connector servicing dark blue conductor from IGN switch, and IGN regulator side of ignition Ballast. Is there a better, less voltage disrupting, tap for the choke heater & soon to be installed o2 sensor heater?

Engine running at 1000 rpm, electric choke disabled, battery not charged from all testing, Amp Gage showing steady at ¼ into charge zone:

Battery voltage 14.14v
Battery (-) to IGN regulator terminal 14.16v
Alternator power bolt to battery (-) 14.9v

All conditions as above excepting rpm of 600:

Battery voltage13.8v
Battery (-) to IGN regulator terminal 13.6v
Alternator power bolt to battery (-) 13.6v

Now first round of tests with engine running are completed, I have the battery on charger, and will retest at 1000 rpm & 600 rpm when fully charged. I expect similar readings.

Are these the voltages now in the normal zone?
Author:  Joshie225 [ Fri Jun 17, 2011 10:32 am ]
Post subject: 
All the components appear to be functioning properly, but the voltage drop between the battery and loads is still excessive. You are pulling down the voltage at the regulator sensing wire which causes the regulator to up the charging voltage. Have the dark blue wire which feeds the regulator activate a relay. Bring the relay power from the alternator side of the ammeter. The loads can be anything you want switched on and off by the key such as your ignition system, choke heater and O2 sensor heater. This will keep the power from flowing through the bulkhead connector and eliminate several sources of voltage drop. The regulator will then sense the system voltage more accurately and will cease to over charge your battery.

I wish I had a white board so I could draw this all out and answer questions as they arise.
Page 3 of 4 All times are UTC-08:00
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Limited
https://www.phpbb.com/