Slant Six Forum :: Turbo for tq and mpg increase in a truck

I thought that all centri. superchargers had an integral WG?

There isn't a pop off valve on the Vortex?

We used to have plates on the huge stationery diesels back in the day. 6 cylinders with six heads, 6-900lb turbos. No intercoolers running diesel/natural gas. 1600hp @ 600rpm. Cat walks and ladders to get to the top end of the motors.

I dont know why I said WG, I was thinking something like a boost limiter. Brain fart

Diesel engine like cool air to a point. For one thing the thermal loading is reduced. The piston, cylinder and cylinder head are all heated by the hot intake air. We want pressure in the cylinder to act on the piston. Of course we increase the pressure by heating the air by burning fuel, but if we start with hot air then it's less dense and we can't burn as much fuel. The 1000hp V12 Cummins we have here at work are aftercooled, but they use engine coolant for the job so I believe it's more for thermal management than outright power.

Like this one only with a remote radiator. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLAkgN98Lo0

Author:	billdedman [ Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:48 am ]
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Thanks for that information, Lou. That is exactly the kind of information I was looking for. Does your system include a blow-off valve or a waste gate? Bill in Conway, AR

Author:	1974duster kev [ Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:54 am ]
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I run 8psi on the street everyday, once I hook my meth up will be turnin that up Also may have to fiddle with some timing stuff The intercooler causing a pressure drop is just becease of it being a restriction and the increased volume that needs to be filled in the charge side of the system. That fella probaby just gave his wastegate a turn of the screwdriver or changed the spring to get the boost back up. Intercoolers that have the inlet and outlet on the same side are technically supposed to be more restrictive since the charge has to double back and make a more complex route out of the intercooler, if the room allows i'd stick with the in on one side and exit on the other style of cooler. Kev

Author:	billdedman [ Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:21 pm ]
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Kev, What you say is true, IF you have a waste gate. Not too easy, if you don't... My supercharged (Vortech) 360 Magnum of course, has NO wastegate, nor does it have an intercooler. It DOES have a Snowperformance Boost Cooler alcohol injection system, though, and that seems to work well with the 10 pounds of boost I run. Never tried it with pump gas, though... I think, if you know what you're doing (and, I certanly don't fall into that category!) it is possible to match up the size of the turbo components to the swept volume of the particular engine in question, and for a low boost application, build a system that has a turbo that simply won't pump out enough air to go above the desired boost level. Ergo, no wastegate would be needed. That simplifies and makes more affordable the modification, although admittedly, not a whole lot. Maybe that's a bad idea, I dunno... but, I think it IS possible. Of course,, just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean you SHOULD... LOL! Boost is addictive!

Author:	Rug_Trucker [ Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:32 pm ]
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There isn't a pop off valve on the Vortex? We used to have plates on the huge stationery diesels back in the day. 6 cylinders with six heads, 6-900lb turbos. No intercoolers running diesel/natural gas. 1600hp @ 600rpm. Cat walks and ladders to get to the top end of the motors.

Author:	raPoM [ Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:54 pm ]
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I thought that all centri. superchargers had an integral WG?

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Author:	Rug_Trucker [ Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:49 pm ]
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Quote: I thought that all centri. superchargers had an integral WG? Don't ask me Batman!

Author:	1974duster kev [ Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:34 pm ]
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Well thats where the miscommunication is coming from lol (at least on my part) we are comparing apples and oranges. Your superchargers boost is being determined by the size of pulley your running. Certain size pulley only makes x amount of boost, I don't know about your setup but most centrifugal superchargers don't create much heat so most people don't run intercoolers in moderate boost situations. I see what you mean about the correct turbo that can only build say 10lbs of boost, but in my opinion that would have to put the turbo out of it's efficiency range at least I would think the little fella of a turbo would be way overspun but who knows maybe the pressure itself would keep the turbine rpm down to a reasonable level. Bench racing gets interesting! Kev

Author:	Dart270 [ Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:42 pm ]
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I have BOV and WG on my car. My WG is not working right now and I have briefly seen 18psi, and I'm sure it would keep going up. Scary. Need too fix that... Lou

Author:	1974duster kev [ Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:48 pm ]
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18pis lou! sounds like a blast haha you have a diaphram style wg? I'm looking at the synapse piston style one for a possible upgrade later on over the ebay one i use Kev

Author:	billdedman [ Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:51 pm ]
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Quote: I thought that all centri. superchargers had an integral WG? Well. the only thing a waste gate does, is bleed off exhaust presssure. When the exhaust driven impeller is spinning the compressor wheel fast enough to create whatever boost is desired, the waste gate opens to let any excess exhaust bypass the exhaust-driven impeller. There is no exhaust going through a supercharger, so no, superchargers don't have waste gates. Maybe you're thinking about a boost limiter. I think some of the early Accel Turbonics(???) stuff had a boost-limiter that was an extra set of throttle blades, hooked to a diaphragm -actuator that would close off the intake charge entering the engine, if the boost exceeded a pre-set amount. But that's the only boost controller I ever heard of for supercharged engines. But, ~I~ haven't seen everything!!!! LOL!

Author:	raPoM [ Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:57 pm ]
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I dont know why I said WG, I was thinking something like a boost limiter. Brain fart

Author:	billdedman [ Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:14 pm ]
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Quote: There isn't a pop off valve on the Vortex? We used to have plates on the huge stationery diesels back in the day. 6 cylinders with six heads, 6-900lb turbos. No intercoolers running diesel/natural gas. 1600hp @ 600rpm. Cat walks and ladders to get to the top end of the motors. I think that the main function of an intercooler is to lower the temperature of the charge for the purpose of reducing the possibility of detonation on a gasoline engine. Octane requirements are closely tied to intake charge temperature, and of course, octane in nothing but an anti-detonation index. Additionally, a cooler charge is, by definition, more dense and contains more oxygen, so more fuel can be burned at a correct air/fuel ratio, resulting in more power, all things being equal. Diesels, on the other hand, RUN on detonation, so the cooler-for-anti-detonation rationale that works for gasoline engines would not be a factor with Diesels. But, thermal efficiency MIGHT be tied to charge density, and to the amount of oxygen in the incoming charge, so a cooler supply of air to the engine might be a good thing. That would be the only reason I could see s to why a Diesel might like an intercooler. It's surely not to prevent detonation... Somebody who knows more than I do about Diesels (and, that could be most anybody) please help me out here... And, no, there is no "pop-off-valve" that I know of on any centrifugal blower. I added a pressure relief valve to my setup to get rid of the excess pressure that builds up when cruising at a steady speed and the throttle blades are barely open. It's very irritating to have to listen to...

Author:	billdedman [ Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:23 pm ]
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Quote: I dont know why I said WG, I was thinking something like a boost limiter. Brain fart Those Accel boost limiters got nothing but bad press from every magazine I ever read. The writers of those test articles said they were horribly inefficient. Didn't matter; Accel got out of the boost business in just the twinkling of an eye... Stayed with ignition; something they knew something about... LOL

Author:	Joshie225 [ Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:30 pm ]
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Diesel engine like cool air to a point. For one thing the thermal loading is reduced. The piston, cylinder and cylinder head are all heated by the hot intake air. We want pressure in the cylinder to act on the piston. Of course we increase the pressure by heating the air by burning fuel, but if we start with hot air then it's less dense and we can't burn as much fuel. The 1000hp V12 Cummins we have here at work are aftercooled, but they use engine coolant for the job so I believe it's more for thermal management than outright power. Like this one only with a remote radiator. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLAkgN98Lo0

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Author:	billdedman [ Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:27 pm ]
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Quote: Diesel engine like cool air to a point. For one thing the thermal loading is reduced. The piston, cylinder and cylinder head are all heated by the hot intake air. We want pressure in the cylinder to act on the piston. Of course we increase the pressure by heating the air by burning fuel, but if we start with hot air then it's less dense and we can't burn as much fuel. The 1000hp V12 Cummins we have here at work are aftercooled, but they use engine coolant for the job so I believe it's more for thermal management than outright power. Like this one only with a remote radiator. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLAkgN98Lo0 Thanks, Josh! That's interesting. Do you know how much boost this engine uses to produce that power? Somebody asked that in the "notes," but the original poster never answered it. I thought you might know. I seem to remember you from a forum on Prodigy, nearly 20 years ago! That was a heady experience, before the Internet. Now, it seems almost humdrum... LOL Bill