So I played around with this Valiant some more today, redoing the mixture because of it shutting off in reverse. It's been since last week since I've started it. It was warmed today in the 60s so I pressed the gas twice and it fired right up. It shut right back down. Then I started it without pressing the gas and it stayed running this time. I verified before I started it when I pressed the gas twice the choke valve shut like it should. So I guess that new choke thermostat is helping. I let it warm up a good amount of time today probably 15 mins. Then I verified the idle at 550rpm, I even checked the dwell which was at 42.5. It idled fine, no smoke, no gas smell. Then I proceeded with the mixture adjustment by the book. I turned in the screw until the RPMS with to like 650-700+ then reset the speed screw to 550rpm. Then I did a second time. Then I went to drive it, it was popping and chugging when I put it in drive trying to take off. I did it like 4 or 5 more times and never could get it good. I verified the choke was fully open by now. Do I just turn in the mixture screw until it gets to the highest rpm and then reset the speed screw to 550? Or do I need to turn the mixture screw rev it up and do it some more? What about with a vacuum gauge? Do I hook the vacuum gauge and just start turning the mixture screw until the needle goes highest it will go without running rough? I got the manifold vacuum plug out so I can install a vacuum gauge because I have no open vacuum ports. Do you know what thread size that plug is? It's got to be pipe thread?

_________________
1965 Plymouth Valiant 200 4DR 2.8L 170CID
1973 Dodge Charger 6.6L 400CID
1986 Plymouth Reliant SE Wagon 2.2L 135CID

Well... in the worst case scenario, a carb can give you a great idle, but wont work when you touch the accelerator (that happened to me!). Frankly, I did not have a decently running car until I bought a OEM old carb. That requires luck (to see it in ebay) and money.

In your case, you will need a checklist, to diagnose and see what you can do.

The problem is not the idle (you tried, it worked), but something else.
You also checked the choke thermostat, and it is working (closed when cold, open when hot (at least after 15 min)).

First check a carburator manual, get familiar with the parts. Is your carb complete? (from outside at least, hopefully, it should be).

https://app.box.com/s/awyhohrr0s4nhb3a6q4x, from http://www.slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=55801. It says 68-69, I hope it is not different from yours.

You should check everything outside before blaming the carb inner parts:

1-Are all the vacuum hoses/holes connected properly/plugged properly (yours should have a vacuum tube to the distributor, one to the choke. Also, a big rubber tube to the valve cover/PCV valve)? Are they connected to the proper vacuum source? Is there any other vacuum source you need to close? (newer carburetors might have more vacuum holes for other purposes (i.e. one for routing hot or cold air to the engine). After 1971 (I think) they changed some of the vacuum openings for the EGR system). As you stated, your carburetor should match your year's car engine, so I think it will have only the vacuum sources I indicated.

2-Is the divorced choke working? (When you accelerate the car, or in a high vacuum (open throttle) situation, the choke vacuum diafragm shoul work, closing the choke. Whith the car in park with no air filter, if you accelerate the car moving the throttle lever by hand you should see the choke closing momentarily). I've installed carbs were that is not working.

3- Is the bowl vent closing when you accelerate the engine? Open at idle?

3- Is the distribution vacuum advance working properly (check timing with a timing light with and without the vacuum connected to see if there is higher advance with the vacuum connected).

After this, then I guess you will need to check the gas level removing the economizer, and follow the reccomendations given here, and in the manual. In the meantime try to increase the idle to 800-900 RPM. Not good for the transmission, but if it works at least you can run the car if needed.

I once bought a remanufactured carburator, and when I opened the bowl, there was no baffle. I'm not saying yours is missing parts, but that might happens.

_________________
/6 Dodge Charger 69
...there's nothing like using the "Search" link above to solve most of your problems...

Do this; peak rpm and smoothness with the mixture and then later adjust idle RPM's where you want it. You never set RPM lower with mixture. I'll guess: 1/4" pipethread....but that is just a guess! And, yes the economizer valve cover does cover a vacuum passage but it is pretty small; it does not much effect idle (that I have experienced).

You're making me think twice about this... I remember the hissing, but I'm not sure now if it caused stalling... I guess is wont affect the idle too much (and what the heck!. The carb manual says so, so it should be fine!)

_________________
/6 Dodge Charger 69
...there's nothing like using the "Search" link above to solve most of your problems...

Well I verified the vent valve is working when you snap the throttle but didn't pay attention to what the choke valve was doing when I snapped the throttle with the air filter off. I do have the correct 3054 Holley, which is correct for a 1965 170 Automatic no a/c. Although my engine is a 1966 the carb is correct for the year of my Valiant a 1965 200. Someone actually downgraded because according to the VIN and fender tag it should have a 225. So there is just the pcv vacuum, the choke pulloff, and the distributor vacuum. The choke pulloff seems to be working. Now I got the Holley 1920 and I can bet that under that fuel bowl there is no baffle. I didn't even think about that when I traded in my core for this new one, it had a baffle in there because I rebuilt it but was a 62 Holley 1920 that didn't use a vacuum choke pulloff. The only vacuum source I would suspect would be the pcv valve, it's original, I cleaned it, it rattles, but the spring to push it in the valve cover is missing so it's just sitting ontop but I don't feel any pressure leaking out. The intake manifold fitting was 3/8 NPT so I got a fitting but couldn't find a 3/8 NPT with a 3/16 hose barb which is what was included in my vacuum gauge. This is the vacuum gauge I've got from Carquest. I got a 3/8 NPT with a 1/4 hose barb. Is it ok to tie some 1/4 hose from the vacuum fitting to a straight vacuum splice reducer to a 3/16 hose? Will it affect readings? And then so if it's tuned right what would the vacuum gauge read? I know my timing is at 2.5 degrees BTC, dwell 42.5. I've checked it numerous times. I always do it with the hose unplugged and the fittings capped off. Never checked the vacuum advance since I replaced the distributor a year ago.

http://www.carquest.com/webapp/wcs/stor ... App=0#[url][/url]

_________________
1965 Plymouth Valiant 200 4DR 2.8L 170CID
1973 Dodge Charger 6.6L 400CID
1986 Plymouth Reliant SE Wagon 2.2L 135CID

The lack of the baffle might not explain what is happening to your car, but it is one of many examples on how remanufactured carburators might bring you trouble...But, the baffle has a guide for the float spring, and without it is easier for it to get loose during shipping, which might give you trouble (even with the baffle it can move during shipping, have happened to me).

About the carb, there are 2 different carb-manifold gaskets in rebuild kits, and it goes in one way so it can give vacuum references to the carb. If you are seeing vacuum in all 3 sources you should be ok.

So, the PCV should be ok, but in doubt, you can put a rubber cap at the carburetor's crankcase gas suction, and see if this improves driving. If so, go an buy a new one, it is illegal driving without a PCV, and it is a cheap fix.

About the vacuum, you need a vacuum source below the carb:
-buy a 3/8" tee and connect to the distributor vacuum circuit.
-connect to the #6 in the intake manifold. This vacuum source might pulsate a little because the opening and closing of the valves in #6.

From what you wrote, you're taking the second option. Use the fittings you have, they should not affect readings (the 1/4" to 3/16" reduction, I mean). I do not know how much vacuum it should show.

Recommendation: check in this order:
- Choke closing when accelerating with the car in park/neutral and no air filter
- Timing with and without the distributor connected to the vacuum source
(In general all parts might fail, worthy to check them anyway, including remanufactured)
- Connect the vacuum gauge, check
- Remove the Economizer, check liquid level, put it back.
- Remove the carb, drain it, open the bowl, check float, spring, baffle conditions.
(SlantSixDan reccomends using a new gasket when closing it back). Do not overtight the bowl screws, you can damage it. (probably you already know this)

I have no more suggesstions right now. Hopefully other members can tell you about vacuum numbers, or other recommendations. (BTW, tried your link, in my case it does not open the gauge page).

_________________
/6 Dodge Charger 69
...there's nothing like using the "Search" link above to solve most of your problems...

Well I didn't do all that today but I did re-time it and adjust the mixture with a vacuum gauge hooked up. Between the timing and mixture the highest reading I could get was 16-17 in/hg. Which on my vaccuum gauge said was in the GOOD zone and the needle was steady. It started right up with 2 pumps of the gas been sitting since Sunday without being started too. However when it starts up it shuts right back off and then I have to restart, which it starts up again easily without pushing the gas pedal and then it stays running. I played with the timing and mixture for about an hour and 16-17 was as high as I could get, I don't know what's normal. But it was idling good and running smooth. However when you put it in drive just to drive around the yard full or part throttle it studdered and popped but I don't think it was a backfire, it wasn't very loud. The timing ended up being at 5 degrees BTC. I called United Carb and talked to the tech, he said once the car is warmed up the choke valve should be wide open and not move anymore until after the car is shut off and cooled again. I verified it doesn't move at all when you do a full throttle turn of the throttle. He told me it could be a bad accelerator pump but to check fuel pressure and flow first. Everything seems to be working the way it suppose to but I haven't checked anything on the fuel pump and beginning to think it maybe the problem. Eventhough it's only $15 for a new one I just hate replacing it if it's not the problem. How can I be sure?

_________________
1965 Plymouth Valiant 200 4DR 2.8L 170CID
1973 Dodge Charger 6.6L 400CID
1986 Plymouth Reliant SE Wagon 2.2L 135CID

One pump should enough to set choke & high idle cam on cold engine. Two pumps just creates a bigger puddle of fuel on bottom of intake manifold. With that said; if one pump won’t get the job done suspect weak accelerator pump shot. Weak accelerator pump shot and or duration will cause your second drivability issue; sputtering or popping through carburetor.

I haven’t had one of these carburetors apart, but if accelerator pump diaphragm is made of leather, and your reman carburetor sat on the shelf for a while its leather probably dried out and cracked limiting its ability to hold pressure once put into service.

Test for pump shot:

With engine off, air cleaner removed, choke butterfly propped open, after shut down so that fuel bowl is full look down barrel of carburetor than rotate throttle fully open observing amount, and length of flow of fuel squirted out by accelerator pump. If it runs out before fully opening throttle, or is just a dribble, or is intermittent than it is time to replace pump diaphragm.

Problem solved department obsurvations:
Previously when choke was flipping partially closed during throttle plate opening is an indication of maladjusted choke stove not being tensioned enough to fully retract butterfly and hold it open. And, generally when opening tension is set too floppy conversely its closing tension is too great causing slow pull off during cold start.


With stock engine build I think this is a bit on the low side, if you have an aftermarket cam with more overlap it may or may not be the best you can get. By backing off on exhaust lash one or two thousands idle vacuum should increase providing rings are in good shape; result is cam on exhaust opens slower & closes quicker reducing overlap. If engine is worn all bets are off on tuning higher vacuum.

Adjusting lash with vacuum gage attached is a good way to see how different lash settings affect vacuum and idle quality. Fellow motor heads here with more tuning experience than me may chime in on their thoughts on how to boost vacuum readings. If you are able to squeeze out higher idle vacuum with a lash adjustment, you will need to redo the idle mixture/timing adjustment dance one more time.

For now concentrate on inspecting accelerator shot, and carburetor float level setting.

_________________
67' Dart GT Convertible; the old Chrysler Corp.
82' LeBaron Convertible; the new Chrysler Corp
07' 300 C AWD; Now by Fiat, the old new Chrysler LLC

16-17 is low IF the car is all warmed up to the point that the choke is off; I would expect at least 18 and more like 20-21 if things are adjusted right. If you rev it up a bit then close the throttlle, it will read higher as the revs drop. Seems like a vaccum leak.... but that is without doing much thinking about it or going back through your posts and re-reading all the info. Other possibility is that the throttle is poen more than normal at idle; or there is a hole drilled in the throttle plate by someone else before the rebuild; or the PCV is not right. Plug that off for a moemnt and see what you get; just pull the line off and put your finger over it.

Wjajr, sorry, you're riigt. Vacuum choke puller should open the choke, not close it when accelerating.

Wh23g3g: looking for info in the 1969 Dode Service manual:

Fuel pump pressure range: 3.5 to 5 psi
Curb Idle speed:
-650 RPM for automatic transmissions and Holley carbs, with lights on. Holley carbs only specified for the 225 ci
-750 rpm for the carter carb, any transmission, with headlights on, for the 170 ci engine.


The fuel pump pressure number is in case you want to check.
The RPM: does it says 550rpm in your car's stickers/manual/service manual? i know my manual is for a 4 year newer car, but still is worthy checking.

For the same intake manifold and carb, the 170 migh show less vacuum than the 225 because it displaces less air...

_________________
/6 Dodge Charger 69
...there's nothing like using the "Search" link above to solve most of your problems...

From the 1969 Dodge Manual: It looks that the 170ci with manual transmission and 426 Hemis had some distributor vacuum control valve. It controls how fast the vacuum changes in the distributor. Yours is automatic, so it is not needed. However in the calibration procedure, they say that you should see the distributor vacuum at 6"or less at idle, and 16" or more vacuum at 2000 RPM in neutral. Some more numbers to check.

I created a PDF of the page with the procedure, and I'm sharing it in the link below.

https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=3 ... 3EFF%21124

_________________
/6 Dodge Charger 69
...there's nothing like using the "Search" link above to solve most of your problems...

Sounds like a classic bad accelerator pump to me.

Sam

_________________

Sam, the OP says that the engine sputters just by shifting from parking (so it is maybe something else); and he also has a "new"-reman carb, and is hesitant to open it (we know they can be crap, but we need to diagnose it without opening it). Hopefully he can conduct the pump test, and let us know how it goes, and if the pump does not work, he can send back the carburetor; or just go ahead and open the economizer and measure the gas level, and the bowl and check float, spring and baffle (which eventually he might need to do, and lose the warranty).

I don't like carbs from big reman shops (bought one did not work), what really worked for me was buying an old, unused one (no gas smell, I installed and engine ran smoothly). There is one, old rebuild in ebay (hoping that rebuilds at that time were not as sloppy as today, and the carb saw little use)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CARTER-Ball-Bal ... a8&vxp=mtr

This is for a 190ci, might work, new noir used:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1970-71-Dodge-a ... 62&vxp=mtr

I know there is no guarantee, but risks are similar, as you noticed. Some people had been happy buying reman carbs from SlantSixDan, who stopped posting here. Not sure if he still can be reachable (his contact is on the internet), and have some for sale in good shape.

_________________
/6 Dodge Charger 69
...there's nothing like using the "Search" link above to solve most of your problems...

I'm not a fan of reman carbs either but it was easiest way to get a 65 style with the rod style throttle shaft. I've bought two 6-697 from Summit from United carb. The one I just replaced was doing similar things. I just decided to open the bowl up to see if it haas a baffle since it's now a spare. No baffle and no float spring. Is that going to cause problems? It's list number is 2378 should it have a float spring and baffle? I bet the replacement I got doesn't have it either.

_________________
1965 Plymouth Valiant 200 4DR 2.8L 170CID
1973 Dodge Charger 6.6L 400CID
1986 Plymouth Reliant SE Wagon 2.2L 135CID

My 24xx or 25xx early Holley had the baffle but no spring. I can't ID any issues that seem to be due to running without the spring. Presumably your bowl has the slots for the baffle?