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First fire successfull....but some issues
https://slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=60390		 Page 3 of 6
Author:  Reed [ Mon Oct 31, 2016 5:42 pm ]
Post subject: 
Whoops! You are right Dan. I took a closer look at the pictures of choke linkage piece and it does look like the correct BBD piece. Sorry about any confusion I might have caused.

The idle problems sound like improper valve lash (too tight) and possible a vacuum leak.
Author:  SlantSteve [ Mon Oct 31, 2016 5:44 pm ]
Post subject: 
Pay general attention only to the lash recommendations of cam grinders,they grind cams not tune engines. With those slow ramps ,especially the exhaust,Id start at .020" for the exhaust and at least .015" for the intake,maybe .020" both as an initial hot setting to see if it improves. Your valve overlap and hence idle will vary markedly with varying lash. Even if you set the lash hot with the engine not running it gives you a ball park starting point until you get the idle down to do them running. I TOTALLY agree with you sir,you paid for a leak free engine,you have every right to have one. Slants are a bit fussy in the rear seal area but no big deal really . I'm very sorry to hear of your frustrations,this hobbly has more than its fair share of highs and lows,but you'll get there I have no doubt.
Author:  '67 Dart 270 [ Mon Oct 31, 2016 6:25 pm ]
Post subject:  rear seal
Dadtruck, can you show us in pictures how that '83 leak traversed from the inside to the outside of the engine...I'm intrigued...didn't quite get your description, forgive me.

BTW, for anyone interested, Pflieger Marine bought some NOS rope seals and is selling them for $58 a set. Occasionally you'll find them cheaper on ebay, but they are getting rare. http://www.marinediscounters.com/chrysl ... t-4397712/

Brian
Author:  '67 Dart 270 [ Mon Oct 31, 2016 6:38 pm ]
Post subject:  correction
Those are part number mopar 4397712 for small block v8, does anyone know if the diameter of the small block rope seal is the same as the slant six/hemi rope seal (part number 6890472)? Sorry Shadango, didn't want to get off topic too much.

brian
Author:  shadango [ Tue Nov 01, 2016 5:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Yep...
Quote:
This cam is supposed to be a copy of the mild Mopar Performance '243' Cam with Mopar's good slow ramps, the card confirms it should be set hot at .015... that being said... I would set it cold at .020, see if it fires and runs OK, then walk the lash in to the .015 value... it may even like .018 better...
.
It seems like a consensus that my lash is probably too tight or I have a gaping vacuum leak somewhere....

So we will tackle the lash first since we had looked for big vac leaks.

Gonna try your suggestion, DusterIdiot, and set them cold, not running, at .020 and see what happens as it warms. I expect it will be noisy.

Gonna do that FIRST before firing it up and looking for the leak (have to stack the work to conserve time...LOL)

So basically pull the plugs, pop the valve cover, rotate engine to TDC on #1, adjust valves for #1. Rotate engine to TDC on #2 , set those, etc right?

I read here about using an old cap, cutting the towers off and lining up the rotor with the correct tower......of course that means I would have to be able to set timing at 0 degrees....

So if I use the cap method and get TDC on one via the line on the balancer (it looked correct when the engine was out and we installed the distributor), i can adjust the distibutor while not running to see the rotor in #1 tower and lock it down, then line up the rotor to get TDC for each cylinder that way right? clockwise 1-5-3-6-2-4

Or is there an easier way where I do not have to sacrifice an otherwise working cap? I have used the "stick" method on my motorcycle, but had much better clearance to do so on that.....

And when we move to adjusting them HOT, with the engine RUNNING, is it OK to disconnect and cap some of the vac hoses that run across the valve cover? I looked at the youtube videos and those folks have NOTHING going across the valve train ...we will have LOTS.....A/C, three vac lines to/from the charcoal canister, wiring for sensors, etc. LOTS. Makes me very nervous....

Image
Author:  '67 Dart 270 [ Tue Nov 01, 2016 8:14 am ]
Post subject:  valve adjustment with engine not running
Shadango,

When ballparking valve lash with engine off, this procedure is very nice:

http://www.allpar.com/mopar/valve-adjustment.html

Basically you take a tape measure and mark your harmonic balancer two additional places from the main mark, divide the circumference into thirds. Get TDC on #1 where the main timing mark is aligned and adjust lash. Turn the crank (direction it would turn when running) to align with the next mark, that'll be TDC for #5, and then 3, 6, 2 and 4. Each time you get to the next mark that'll reflect the next cylinder in the firing order, 1-5-3-6-2-4. This allows you to go through all six lash settings in firing order.

Brian
Author:  '67 Dart 270 [ Tue Nov 01, 2016 8:28 am ]
Post subject:  sacrificial cap
Shadango,

Yes, make sure you're at #1 tower for TDC. You don't have to sacrifice your cap, you can mark with a sharpie on the side of your distributor where the center of #1 tower is and align your rotor with that on TDC for #1. Make sure you are on the compression stroke, with the plugs out you'll feel the air pushing out of the plug hole on the up stroke.

You can also get one of these handy (inexpensive) tools for finding TDC independently of your timing mark and it'll tell you if you timing mark on the balancer is correct (sometimes the outer ring slips and the mark is incorrect).

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-900189

You can get them at the local parts store I believe. You screw it into #1 plug hole and CAREFULLY turn the engine until it stops the piston. Mark the balancer where 0 is on the timing tab. Then turn the engine the other direction until it stops the piston, mark the balancer where the 0 is aligned. Now, measure half-way point between the two marks, that is TDC. If it's on your timing mark, then your balancer's mark is correct, if it's not, then your balancer's out ring as slipped.

Brian
Author:  SlantSixDan [ Tue Nov 01, 2016 9:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Yep...
Quote:
This cam is supposed to be a copy of the mild Mopar Performance '243' Cam
Err…no, I'm pretty sure there are differences between the RV10RDP and the Mopar Performance P2140243 cam.
Author:  shadango [ Tue Nov 01, 2016 10:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: sacrificial cap
Quote:
Shadango,

You don't have to sacrifice your cap, you can mark with a sharpie on the side of your distributor where the center of #1 tower is and align your rotor with that on TDC for #1.

Brian
The engine bay is so tight on the 80 Volare , seeing the side of the distributor much less marking it -- probably not doable. :(
Quote:
Shadango,

You can also get one of these handy (inexpensive) tools for finding TDC independently of your timing mark <snip> Now, measure half-way point between the two marks, that is TDC. If it's on your timing mark, then your balancer's mark is correct, if it's not, then your balancer's out ring as slipped.

Brian
Now, my builder said he centerlined the cam.....and its a brand new damper.....so the marks SHOULD line up perfect right?
Quote:
Shadango,

When ballparking valve lash with engine off, this procedure is very nice:

http://www.allpar.com/mopar/valve-adjustment.html

Basically you take a tape measure and mark your harmonic balancer two additional places from the main mark, divide the circumference into thirds. Get TDC on #1 where the main timing mark is aligned and adjust lash. Turn the crank (direction it would turn when running) to align with the next mark, that'll be TDC for #5, and then 3, 6, 2 and 4. Each time you get to the next mark that'll reflect the next cylinder in the firing order, 1-5-3-6-2-4. This allows you to go through all six lash settings in firing order.

Brian
Will that work with a cam like mine?
Author:  Reed [ Tue Nov 01, 2016 10:29 am ]
Post subject: 
On a standard slant six distributor installation, the #1 plug tower on the cap usually winds up at about four o'clock. The vacuum advance pod usually sits around five o'clock. I have good luck ballparking base timing (at least good enough to make stating the engine easy) by installing the distributor so the rotor points just before the vacuum advance pod. I cut my teeth on slant sixes working on F bodies, so I understand your issue with tight engine compartments.
Author:  shadango [ Tue Nov 01, 2016 11:03 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
On a standard slant six distributor installation, the #1 plug tower on the cap usually winds up at about four o'clock. The vacuum advance pod usually sits around five o'clock. I have good luck ballparking base timing (at least good enough to make stating the engine easy) by installing the distributor so the rotor points just before the vacuum advance pod. I cut my teeth on slant sixes working on F bodies, so I understand your issue with tight engine compartments.
Yeah we got it ballparked enough to run it for break in.....brought it to TDC on the stand and put the distributor in as you indicated, rotor at 4 oclock-ish.....I was happily surprised it started right up...LOL

Even getting to the balancer now to mark it that its installed in the bay will be interesting....I'm a big dude...LOL But this seems like the easiest way to do a non-running adjustment.

When we had the engine on the stand, I lined up the mark and it appeared that the piston was in fact at TDC so I think we are OK with that aspect.
Author:  '67 Dart 270 [ Tue Nov 01, 2016 12:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Tdc
You're probably fine if it's a new dampener.

I took a hole saw and made this cap from a crappy low quality cap;

http://s785.photobucket.com/user/67dart ... html?o=267

Then I marked #1 tower with white paint (not shown in earlier pic). Maybe this would be better in an F-body if line of sight is tough.

Brian
Author:  '67 Dart 270 [ Tue Nov 01, 2016 12:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: sacrificial cap
Quote:

Will that work with a cam like mine?
Yes, that process is fine for getting the lash ball parked with the engine not running. After you have the engine running and major runnability issues solved, then you can set the lash according to what your cam likes best for your application.

Brian
Author:  DadTruck [ Tue Nov 01, 2016 5:23 pm ]
Post subject: 
https://www.flickr.com/photos/13718356@ ... ed-public/

Dadtruck, can you show us in pictures how that '83 leak traversed from the inside to the outside of the engine.

the pencil points to the rear seal carrier through bolt that was the source of the rear leak,,,

fixed it with an application of RTV to the bolt threads and using RTV to cap the through hole[/quote]
Author:  DusterIdiot [ Tue Nov 01, 2016 5:33 pm ]
Post subject:  1/2 right...LOL
Quote:
Err…no, I'm pretty sure there are differences between the RV10RDP and the Mopar Performance P2140243 cam.
It looks like it uses the Erson RV10 mechanical lobe and the MP exhaust lobe... which brings a new set of eyebrow raising...

If the lobes were copied correctly...

The Erson PDM lobe is 254 advertised duration using a .022 lash... (Erson cams had really nice ramps even on the bigger cams)

The MP exhaust lobe is 244 advertised duration using a .020 lash...

So my recommendation would be would be to start about .024-.025 cold and once warm tighten it up to .022 on intakes and .020 exhaust a little bit at a time to see how things react... if everything is stable, you might see if the idle gets worse if you go any tighter... if so then back off to the previous setting.

If this bears out we may need to tell Ken to loosen the lash setting on the cam card a bit.


On another note, too bad the damper isn't like the 1973-1980 OEM dampers, they actually have 2 other 'notches' on the outer pulley lip at 120 degrees equidistant from the timing mark... that would help Shadango quickly locate his 3 marks...
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