Mike & Cj,

I suspect that there are several things out of whack here. It seams the static timing issue is some what settled as the engine finally started after flipping the wires 180 degrees. This is welcome progress, as it is difficult to diagnose an engine with run ability problems when it is acting as a boat anchor… A major hurtle has been cleared!

Here are my thoughts:

Park idle needs to be under 800 rpm with stock distributor, and cam to prevent a mechanical advance event. Those weights will start to move out at about 800 rpm when in good condition, advancing actual idle timing. The more the weights are flung from rest the higher timing gets cranked. By 1000 rpm there could be 3 degrees added which will translate to another 300 or 400 rpm with out changing idle screw adjustments.

If those springs are weak, or broken the weights could be to full advance by as little as 1000 rpm, and when throttle is closed the timing stays over advanced resulting in greatly increased idle rpm that won’t settle until the engine is shut off, at which time the weak spring can pull the mechanical advance back to rest on their stops.


1. Idle ramps up from 1000 to 1500 rpm. Possible cause; sticking mechanical advance, weak or broken mechanical advance springs.

2. Won’t idle under 1000 rpm. I don’t trust the air tightness of an oak carburetor spacer, I suspect a large vacuum leak from one or several possible sources: power brake booster if equipped; PVC valve & related plumbing; carburetor spacer and old re-used gaskets, and a deformed carburetor base being most likely suspect.

3. Pop & farts through carburetor during rpm increase. I have to believe this is a result of a lean condition. Possible causes: weak accelerator pump shot, and or see #2’s list of suspects.

4. I’m not up on harmonic balancer peccadillo’s, but could this device be bad, and combined with the motor mount mod, would make that engine rattle in the its cradle?

I don’t understand why one would disembowel his motor mounts.

And, for the record Mike, did you use satin or gloss urethane? LOL

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67' Dart GT Convertible; the old Chrysler Corp.
82' LeBaron Convertible; the new Chrysler Corp
07' 300 C AWD; Now by Fiat, the old new Chrysler LLC

wjajr, poly-urethane rubber lol, i have another balancer that i may switch out just to see if it affects anything, also dizzy is a new reman unit, going to also swithc to the 2bbl and see if it helps any. i will double check and plug both pcv and power brake booster on carb to see if it helps or hurts

ceej going to double check timing marks as we speak (on balancer and dizzy rotor position)but last i checked it was balls on,

progress gentlemen progress i love progress, and i am so very thankful to all who have contributed to helping me get this slug running, she will be a cinderella story dang it !!!

-Mike

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I am the Guardian, I hate helos, everything leaks.......

ok quick update,

2bbl is back on and with a quick R&D session and a couple of back fires heres whats up, but runs and idles in park/neutral at 800rpms like a champ

wood spacer removed, 2bbl-->4bbl adapter installed up side down reuseable 4bbl gasket reused

carter 2bbl back on, but OMG 8full turns out on the idle air screws (for them just bottomed out, snug not tight, the adjusted out), she was back fireing BAD till they were adjusted out that far

timing backed off till it smoothed out atleast 14-16degs, but i feel the balancer maybe off, but i have a theory............

the trans is a reman unit that has sat for as long as the car has been down (over 2yrs), and what lil fluid fluid was in there drained out when i tilted to install, refilled with atf+4 filled with 5qts run through the gears then topped with 2 more qts. and it was just a bit over the full line, what is the possibility the torque converter may be getting ready to let loose ?? maybe the pump, heres why i think that. its a intermitent thunk thunk, everytime the throttle is hit you hear it but it doesn't sound like rod knock, not at all ,been there a few times, but i am thinking it may be the tranny, and i have to perfectly good 904's just sitting here only problem is i don't have a 904 yoke !! FML geez, but it still backfiring through the intake when the throttle is mashed, in gear idle dropps from 800-->500 and good luck giving it gas, even light throttle she stalls,

tomorrow the balancer gets swapped, and rotor/balancer get double checked, anyone know if balancers/timing tabs are different for a '72 and '75 slant ???


-Mike

p.s. the 904 i got off of the new motor, the TC said "HIGH STALL", did the '75's come from the factory with high stall converters ?? motor and trans are both from '75 duster

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I am the Guardian, I hate helos, everything leaks.......

Mike: Good, now mechanical advance isn’t increasing your idle rpm by ramping up. In other words as rpm increases, advance increases forcing in increase in rpm, and so the cycle goes onward and upward. Tuning idle fuel mixture will be possible with this variable removed… Maybe.
This condition of 8 turns out indicates that too much air is entering the manifold somewhere below the throttle plates. How do I know? Too many turns out in rich land with that idle mixture screw, and popping & farting at speed during throttle opening. In other words, a vacuum leak.

You have to find that vacuum leak.
Check flexplate for proper alignment, cracks, and its bolts for tightness.

_________________
67' Dart GT Convertible; the old Chrysler Corp.
82' LeBaron Convertible; the new Chrysler Corp
07' 300 C AWD; Now by Fiat, the old new Chrysler LLC

Which 2 to 4 barrel adapter?

Got a part number? The Mr Gasket one is to mount a 2300 to a 4 bbl intake or 4 bbl to the Holley 2 bbl manifold. Not the same as a BBD pattern.

CJ

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Part of Tyrde-Browne Racing

no its the mr gasket holley to thermoturd, its only slightly gaped and i used sealer around the edges of the 1/4" carb spacer.

i will be tearing into the car tomorrow to try and track this vaccuum leak, tired tonight and putting a stero in my buddys truck,


-Mike

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I am the Guardian, I hate helos, everything leaks.......

stereo went in with out a hitch in a '98 ram. now onto the car, had a brilliant idea, pull the splash proof shield double check all the TC->Flexplate bolts for tightness (even though i used RED loctite on them), and start the car and run it to see if i could visually see anything.

so car got jacked up and put up on jackstands at all 4 corners (at max extension), pulled the splash shield, double checked the flexplate to TC bolts still silly tight, tightened the engine to trans brace bolts, had wife start the car, and big puff of white smoke came out of carb.... weird....... started again, fired right up except she idled at about 500rpms......again she was chillin yesterday at 800rpms...... weird #2...

watched the torque converter to see if i could visually see anything nothing but i could clearly hear the very random and intermitent thunk, grabbed my trusty prybay (10" variety) and put it at several spots on the block....moving front to rear.....sound got stronger at rear, did the same to the trans...nothing at the rear but def something at the bell....again thinkin something with the TC or pump........

BUT there is something defintely wrong with the tranny, now its a aftermarket Hurst V-matic 2 shifter, didn't think you could screw up the adjument on it sooooo i disconnected the shifter cable on the tranny, and ran it through the gears by hand...... HAZAHHH !!! there is no neutral......or at least thats what i am thinkin......put it in reverse......tires spun backwards......put it in neutral........tires spun foward...wife gave small amount of gas, they spun faster WTF....then did 3..2...1.. all foward tire spin, btw she was a pig in 1st dunno why....

I got a buddy of mine (mr '98 ram) taking me to the boneyard tomorrow to snag a few 904 yokes, i am going to start with the tranny pull the 727 out........now gurus kinda questioning myself on this is there any way to leave the engine bolted in the car, but some way of securing it AND being able to start it, sorta like using your car as an engine stand, just start and idle nothing more...... ?????

-Mike

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I am the Guardian, I hate helos, everything leaks.......

ok so i never made it to the boneyard today, but i did some more testing checked all the screw on the carb to make sure they were nice and tight, double checked the base plate gasket it was nice and tight, checked the intake/exhaust mani nuts, they were still nice and tight.

but will an exhaust leak and the heat riser (like my idea to use a piece of sheetmetal total fail) casue her to stumble and fumble like she has ??

i got the car running, shes idleing around 800rpm outta gear, and is 10deg Before TDC. but man soon as you put her in gear, idle drops like a rock down to around 350-400rpm's, i increased the out of gear rpm to 1000rpms, put her in gear same thing happens, increased the outta gear rpm to 1500rpms, and same thing drops to about 350-400rpm in gear, and if you try and give her gas in any of the mentioned base idle settings pigs out and dies with a puff of white smoke from the carb,

i did notice that when i increased the BTDC timing she smoothed out like glass, no thunk thunk, but when i brought the timing mark to 10degs BTDC i had to severly increase base idle otherwise she'd die,waiting for everything to cool down, gonna swap in the 904 and see if the thunk thunk goes away, evil 727 trans, going to pull the crank pully off tonight when i do the trans just a kinda lets see if it fixes itself kinda scenario,

-Mike

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I am the Guardian, I hate helos, everything leaks.......

I've got a couple of observations here. Use something like WD-40 or carb cleaner to check for vacuum leaks. Spray it around the carb and your adapters while the engine is idling. If the RPM changes, that's a leak.
Your adapter sounds like the wrong one to me. Take some photos. Show us what you are working with.

In neutral with the rear tires off the ground, the tires will spin. The 904 will do the same thing.

Get the right manifold stack gasket. They are inexpensive. This will not cause the problem you are describing however.

Sounds like you have a loose spring. The perches for the distributor advance springs are adjusted to make sure they have slight tension. If there is slop in them, timing will do some funny things when you pop the tranny in gear. Like drop as much as your describing. It may also be too light a spring. There should be two different spring rates, one is higher than the other.

Stop changing parts until you have it running correctly. Stick with one configuration and get everything figured out. Then when you change something, change one thing at a time. It makes it easier to keep up with.

CJ

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Part of Tyrde-Browne Racing

well is it possible the dizzy i messed up even though its a reman unit ??

I am thinking about switching back to the dizzy that came with motor,

i will try the wd-40 trick tomorrow, i am thinking about switching back to the 2bbl intake as well, could the 4bbl intake be giving me issues ??

-Mike

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I am the Guardian, I hate helos, everything leaks.......

Just keep it in running condition. I will be coming up your way today. Lets see if we can find the problem.

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Charrlie_S
65 Valiant 100 2dr post 170 turbo
66 Valiant Signet 170 nitrous
64 Valiant Signet
64 Valiant 4dr 170
64 Valiant 4dr 225

Mike:
[quote]well is it possible the dizzy i messed up even though its a reman unit ?? [/quote]

Very possible

[quote]i am thinking about switching back to the 2bbl intake as well[/quote]

As CJ said; “one thing at a timeâ€￾.

Unfortunately figuring out what is wrong here is not as easy as scribbling up an algebraic equation with five unknowns, setting up a matrix, and solving it.

At the moment that engine is running, not correctly, but none the less, it turns over & burns gas in its present state. This is a good thing.

What you have to do is methodically & systematically check every possible location in & around that intake system for a vacuum leak first. Why? Because it is easier to spray stuff, than disassemble a distributor. Easy steps first.

As CJ instructed, pay careful attention to that carburetor to manifold mating surfaces.

When I first joined this forum, I was having similar idle problems. I bet I went through two cans of carburetor cleaner looking for vacuum leaks, as several folks were telling me I had a leak, and kenw damn well there was no leak… Long story short, I had a leak, it was so big that no mater how much I sprayed the intake / carburetor intersection, no change in rpm could be detected. After removing the carburetor for the 20th time, I checked the base for flatness with the straight edge from a combination square. It was cupped, in other words the bolt eyes were bent down & the center raised so that air was being sucked in on all four sides. As I sprayed one side of the base, the other three took up the slack, and the result was no rpm change.

Using a large mill bastard file I was able to file it back to flat, and air tight.

What I saying here is not that your carburetor is cupped, but that you must suspect the things that you know are to be correct.

Back to that vacuum leak.

Do you have power brakes? If so they incorporate a large rubber diaphragm that moves in & out to add braking force, utilizing vacuum from the engine. If that diaphragm has a hole in it, that would be a vacuum leak. To test; disconnect the rubber hose from your intake manifold that supplies the brake booster, and plug off that vacuum tap on the manifold, and see how the engine reacts.

You car has several vacuum lines connecting pollution control devices & various dashpots that control such things warm air flaps to the air cleaner etc., each one of these devices need to be isolated, and the hose connecting them & the device has to be checked.

Small diaphragms can easily be checked for leaks by simply sucking on its supply hose, if you can suck air, it is a leak. And, so it goes.

_________________
67' Dart GT Convertible; the old Chrysler Corp.
82' LeBaron Convertible; the new Chrysler Corp
07' 300 C AWD; Now by Fiat, the old new Chrysler LLC

wjajr i will post some pics tomorrow, but charrlie came by to today and helped me get her running, turns out i had accidently flipped the #2 and #4 plug wires.........feeel so dumb, that and the idle was a bit rich, and plugs were pretty ugly, so first thing first new champions are going in soon as she finishes cooling down, and then i am going to drive and enjoy her, while i squirrel away parts for an HEI conversion,
oh and just heads up, if your in the jacksonville, fl area avoid ACE PICK-A-PART, total scammers, and the way the conduct business is dumb, but thats for a different forum , gonna gap the plugs at .035 and go baby go yea a running and driving car yea !!!!!!!!!!!!! now to fix the stumble off the line...... grr

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I am the Guardian, I hate helos, everything leaks.......

now the crappy thing, she as just died on me, done it 3 times, and each time it all ends the same carb floods from near the venturi's, i installed the small check ball as per the instructions........ i don't understand why it randomly just starts pouring fuel from either the diminishing well bleeds or the pump discharge window either way the fuel is just dumping from between the boosters, but the really weird thing is once the fuel is done flooding the tops of the butterflys and leaking out of any and all orrfices ie throttle shaft, and i crank and crank and crank ( and the residual fuel evaporates) then she will fire right up like nothing was ever wrong, so lost on this one guys,

-Mike

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I am the Guardian, I hate helos, everything leaks.......

If it's flooding the float level is too low, the float is bad or there is dirt between the needle and seat.

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Joshua