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Lorrie's Ammeter/Alternator/Battery
https://slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=48969		 Page 4 of 6
Author:  Mroldfart2u [ Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Charging Gremlins
Quote:
Hey All,
Just finished the "Full Field" Test of Lorrie's Alternator.

Disconnected the Field Terminal of the Alternator.

Connected the BATT Terminal of the Alternator TO the Positive Post of the Battery.

Connected the Field Terminal of the Alternator TO the IN Terminal of a Push ON/Release OFF Switch.

Connected the OUT Terminal of the Push ON/Release OFF Switch to the Negative Post of the Battery.

Connected the Negative Battery Cable to the Negative Post of the Battery.

Connected the Positive Lead of the Multi-Tester to the Positive Pole of the Battery.

Connected the Common Lead of the Multi-Tester to the Negative Pole of the Battery.

Multi-Tester showed 11.97 Volts at the Battery WITHOUT the Engine running.

Started the Engine.

Multi-Tester indicated 11.87 Volts at the Battery WITH the Engine running

Pushed the Push ON/Release OFF Switch.

Multi-Tester indicated 11.87 Volts at the Battery WITH the Engine running.

Increased the Engine RPMs.

Multi-Tester indicated 11.87 Volts at the Battery WITH the Engine running.

The test results indicate that the Alternator is non-functional.

Am going to replace the present Alternator with the one that Smith Auto Electric says is a functional unit in a bit when Lorrie's mighty 225 Slant Six Engine is cooled off.

With the Fuel Gauge System Circuitry COMPLETELY separate from the Charge System Circuitry, along with a NEW Alternator Regulator, along with a known functioning Alternator, Lorrie hopefully will show a charge on her Ammeter.

Only time will tell.

Will let you know how it all works out.

JC
Sounds like you have found the major culprit.......

Now to start putting things back in circuit one @ a time to see if any other components are fault.

If you still want to keep LVH org and the amp gauge is fine there is no reason to 'change'. IF you would also like a pure volt gauge that is possible too... Just wire it to a "switched" 12v source to gauge then to ground...

Hope this helps....
Author:  SlantSixDan [ Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Charging Gremlins
Quote:
Hey All,
Just finished the "Full Field" Test of Lorrie's Alternator.
I don't think that you did, actually. You made an error in your hookup.
Quote:
Disconnected the Field Terminal of the Alternator.
Good…
Quote:
Connected the BATT Terminal of the Alternator TO the Positive Post of the Battery.
Okeh. Not necessary for a full-field test, but if you're measuring line voltage across the battery, this step would bypass any breaks in the current path between alternator B+ and battery (+).
Quote:
Connected the Field Terminal of the Alternator TO the IN Terminal of a Push ON/Release OFF Switch.
Fine…
Quote:
Connected the OUT Terminal of the Push ON/Release OFF Switch to the Negative Post of the Battery.
Nope! The field terminal of the alternator needs to be connected to the alternator's B+ (output) terminal in order to full-field the alternator and check if it's working. If you ground the field terminal of the alternator, the alternator will do nothing.

Re-run your test with the pushbutton switch connected across alternator B+ and alternator field.
Author:  JCAllison [ Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Charging Gremlins
Quote:
Sounds like you have found the major culprit.......
Hey Mr. OF,
Hopefully. What concerns me is that the present Alternator was NEW when it was put in, but the Fuel Gauge System was still attached to the IGN Wire FROM the Run Switch. And THAT burned both the Alternator Regulator, AND the present NEW Alternator. BUT, the OLD Alternator was also in Lorrie when the Fuel Gauge System was still attached to the IGN Wire FROM the Run Switch and Smith Auto Electric said it is functional. How come IT survived the Fuel Gauge System conflict and the NEW Alternator didn't?
Quote:
Now to start putting things back in circuit one @ a time to see if any other components are fault.
Am going to remove the present NEW, non functioning Alternator, and reinstall the OLD Alternator. Hook everything up and start Lorrie's mighty 225 Slant Six Engine, and hope that THAT solves the problem.
Quote:
If you still want to keep LVH org and the amp gauge is fine there is no reason to 'change'.
Right.
Quote:
IF you would also like a pure volt gauge that is possible too... Just wire it to a "switched" 12v source to gauge then to ground...
Alright.
Quote:
Hope this helps....
Your kind responses are MUCH appreciated.

It's already too hot outside, and Lorrie's Engine has been running. So will probably not get the present, NEW, but non-functioning Alternator taken out till tomorrow morning.

Will keep you updated on any progress.

JC
Author:  Mroldfart2u [ Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:18 am ]
Post subject: 
Am glad you caught that Dan... After the re-read of initial instructions I see the mistake also.. Maybe he can retest before all is swapped to make for sure the NEW alt is indeed dead. And test the same with the OLD before changing everything back...
Author:  JCAllison [ Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Charging Gremlins
Quote:
I don't think that you did, actually. You made an error in your hookup.
Hey Daniel,
!!!
Quote:
Okeh. Not necessary for a full-field test, but if you're measuring line voltage across the battery, this step would bypass any breaks in the current path between alternator B+ and battery (+).
"B+"? There isn't any B+ Terminal on either of Lorrie's Alternators. Just a BATT Terminal, a Field Terminal, and the Ground through the Mounting Bracket. THAT'S all there IS!
Quote:
Nope! The field terminal of the alternator needs to be connected to the alternator's B+ (output) terminal in order to full-field the alternator and check if it's working.
Again, there ISN'T any B+ Terminal.
Quote:
If you ground the field terminal of the alternator, the alternator will do nothing.
Which is what happened.
Quote:
Re-run your test with the pushbutton switch connected across alternator B+ and alternator field.
Again, there ISN'T any B+ Terminal.

In lieu of a B+ Terminal, where SHOULD the Field Terminal be connected to do proper test?

Anyway, your response is GREATLY appreciated.

JC
Author:  JCAllison [ Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:21 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Am glad you caught that Dan... After the re-read of initial instructions I see the mistake also.. Maybe he can retest before all is swapped to make for sure the NEW alt is indeed dead. And test the same with the OLD before changing everything back...
Hey Mr. OF,
There is no B+ Terminal on either of Lorrie's Alternators.

JC
Author:  SlantSixDan [ Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:30 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
There is no B+ Terminal on either of Lorrie's Alternators.
Yeah, JCAllison, there really, really is. It's the output stud. The big round threaded one you appear to be calling "BATT". You are missing large chunks of basic terminology and operating theory, and it's making your tasks—all of them—a lot harder, longer, and more expensive and frustrating than they should be. Go get and read the Petersen and Stockel books mentioned in this thread. They will cost very little and pay you back thousands of times over, because they will allow you to stop chasing your tail like this.
Author:  Mroldfart2u [ Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:21 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:

Hey Mr. OF,
There is no B+ Terminal on either of Lorrie's Alternators.

JC
Ummm Yes there is, it is as Dan explained.. Its the terminology that had ya bumfoozeled... B+ is the Positive Side of a DC power circuit... Sorry you had the misunderstanding... It goes back to one of my favorite sayings... " What we have here, is a failure to communicate"

Hope YOU are well and get the needed rest...
Author:  JCAllison [ Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:37 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Quote:
There is no B+ Terminal on either of Lorrie's Alternators.
Yeah, JCAllison, there really, really is.
Hey Daniel,
REALLY?

Have just examined one of Lorrie's Alternators.

It has a Spade Terminal labeled "FLD" which is just below the Rear Hub.

On each side of the Rear Hub, there are "GRD labels.

Nowhere on this unit is there a label of "B+"

Have a number of Dodge Wiring Diagrams where the symbol for the Alternator has three labels: One is "FLD"; one is "GRD"; and the third one is "BATT"! But nowhere on ANY of the Diagrams nor in the Text does the term "B+" appear.

Now, thanks to YOU, have learned that what the wiring diagrams refer to as the "BATT" Terminal is the "B+" Terminal. Will make it a point to remember that.
Quote:
It's the output stud.
"The output stud"? Have never seen the term "output stud" used to refer to the BATT (B+) Terminal
Quote:
The big round threaded one
"Big round threaded one"? Have never seen the term "big round threaded one" used in reference to the BATT (B+) Terminal.
Quote:
you appear to be calling "BATT".
I didn't make that up!

Every wiring diagram on the Web, and in the books call what YOU are referring to as the "B+" Terminal, the "BATT" Terminal.
Quote:
You are missing large chunks of basic terminology
Alright.
Quote:
and operating theory,
Alright.
Quote:
and it's making your tasks—all of them—a lot harder,
Actually, nothing that has been done here has been "hard" (if by "hard" you mean difficult).

Have actually been having the time of my life getting to remedy such things as blown Intake/Exhaust Manifold Gaskets, OLD Brass Nuts stripping out, Intake Valves getting stuck, Push Rods getting bent, NEW Fuel Gauge installed, Alternators and Alternator Regulators tested, and etc.
Quote:
longer,
Well, actually Daniel, isn't THAT the whole point of doing this? Working on Lorrie is a pass-time. It isn't something that HAS to be done. Work proceeds at a very leisurely pace. Am in no hurry.
Quote:
and more expensive
Alright.
Quote:
and frustrating than they should be.
Alright.
Quote:
Go get and read the Petersen and Stockel books mentioned in this thread.
Alright.
Quote:
They will cost very little and pay you back thousands of times over, because they will allow you to stop chasing your tail like this.
Alright.

Anyway, thanks for the response.

JC
Author:  JCAllison [ Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:42 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hey All,
Saturday Evening Update:

Will be removing Lorrie's Alternator tomorrow morning.

Will keep you all updated.

JC
Author:  JCAllison [ Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:46 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hey Mr. OF,
Quote:
Ummm Yes there is, it is as Dan explained.
Got it.
Quote:
Its the terminology that had ya bumfoozeled... B+ is the Positive Side of a DC power circuit... Sorry you had the misunderstanding...
Alright.
Quote:
It goes back to one of my favorite sayings... " What we have here, is a failure to communicate"
Alright.
Quote:
Hope YOU are well and get the needed rest...
Alright.

JC
Author:  JCAllison [ Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Charging Gremlins
Hey Daniel,
So, let's try this again.
Quote:
I don't think that you did, actually. You made an error in your hookup.
Alright.
Quote:
Okeh. Not necessary for a full-field test, but if you're measuring line voltage across the battery, this step would bypass any breaks in the current path between alternator B+ and battery (+).
Such as a possibly non-functioning Ammeter.
Quote:
Quote:
Connected the OUT Terminal of the Push ON/Release OFF Switch to the Negative Post of the Battery.
Nope! The field terminal of the alternator needs to be connected to the alternator's B+ (output) terminal in order to full-field the alternator and check if it's working.
Alright.
Quote:
If you ground the field terminal of the alternator, the alternator will do nothing.
Alright.
Quote:
Re-run your test with the pushbutton switch connected across alternator B+ and alternator field.
Alright.

Am going to assume that the Multi-Tester should be measuring the Voltage at the Battery Terminals.

JC
Author:  Mroldfart2u [ Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Charging Gremlins
Quote:

Am going to assume that the Multi-Tester should be measuring the Voltage at the Battery Terminals.

JC
Yepper.. let us know what the readings are...
Author:  JCAllison [ Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Charging Gremlins
Quote:
Yepper.. let us know what the readings are...
Hey Mr. OF,
Am going to finish some on-line stuff and then go do the test as Daniel delineated.

Will let you know what happens.

JC
Author:  JCAllison [ Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Charging Gremlins
Hey All,
Sunday Morning Update:

Did the Test Set-Up installation the way that Daniel delineated.

Ran the Full-Field Test of Lorrie's Alternator with the Set-Up that Daniel delineated.

Multi-Tester reading at the Battery WITHOUT the Engine running was 11.98 Volts.

Started Lorrie's mighty 225 Slant Six Engine.

Multi-Tester reading at the Battery WITH the Engine running was 11.88 Volts.

Activated the Switch that connected the Field Terminal of the Alternator TO the B+ Terminal of the Alternator.

Multi-Tester reading at the Battery WITH the Engine running and the Switch activated was 11.88 Volts.

Increased the Engine RPMs.

Multi-Tester Reading at the Battery WITH the Engine running and the Switch Activated was 11.87.

Conclusion: The present Alternator is non-functional.

Am going to un-install the Present Alternator, and re-install Previous Alternator (the one that Smith Auto Electric pronounced functional), and see if it works.

This will be the first time that a KNOWN functioning Alternator has been in the system since the Fuel Gauge System Circuitry was isolated from the Start/Run/Charge System Circuitry.

If this works, the problem is solved.

If it doesn't work, there is one last thing to check for functionality and that is the Ammeter.

Will let you know what happens.

JC
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