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LX301 HEI Control Module
https://slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=51145		 Page 4 of 15
Author:  SlantSteve [ Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:48 pm ]
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If it wasn't for bad luck you wouldn't have any luck at all, right?


How true is that!!
Author:  JCAllison [ Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:04 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
At least you still have spark....
Hey Steve,
See Wednesday Evening Update!
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Hopefully just flooded.
Will find out tomorrow morning when it's down in the mid 30s. Will see if she will start then.
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Hang in there,old cars can be extremely reliable when sorted.
Both of these old vehicles have been VERY reliable up until just the past year or so. Neither one of them get driven very much because I don't go out except when necessary.
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A 1964 Galaxie huh?
Yes. Her name is Ms. American 3.14159. Both she and Lorrie are world famous! Lorrie is the only Dodge P200 Postal Van still in existence. Saw a website that said they were "extinct". But Lorrie lives when it's not too cold.
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Is that a 260 or 289?
Neither. It is a "P-Code" 390 CID FE V8.

Ms. American is the ONLY 1964 Ford Galaxie 500, Four-Door, Hard-Top, Fast-Back, Police Interceptor that Google finds on the whole World Wide Web.

She has Solid Lifters, Cast Iron Shorty Headers, Five Row Radiator, 11.5" Diameter X 3.25" Wide Brakes, a BorgWarner T85 Three Speed Transmission with Overdrive, a 4.11:1 Differential, and Kelsey Severe Service Wheels.

She is all ORIGINAL except for a Mallory Ignition Coil, and Crane Fireball Cam, but I still have the ORIGINAL Mustard Top Coil AND the ORIGINAL Cam here.

My father bought her NEW, and she was my mother's daily driver till my mother could no longer pass the eye exam to get her driver's license. Ms. American came to live with me in June of 1986.

Lorrie Van Haul has been with me since 1975. She is Ms. American's "Chase Truck"! :)
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I may get in big trouble for saying this on a slant forum but they are a beautiful power plant, one of my all time favourites!
Naaaaa. You won't get into trouble.

The "P-Code" 390 FE is a VERY basic Engine. NEW, it had 330 HP. The old Gal will be 50 years next year, and she is driven VERY gently. She has 297,700 miles on her odometer (actually 97,700 miles on the third time around).
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Good luck with the starting, keep us posted.
Thanks... For sure.

Temperature in the 70s this afternoon at 3:30 p.m. Went out, turned on the Run Switch, hit the Start Switch, and LORRIE STARTED RIGHT UP!

What does THAT tell you?

JC
Author:  JCAllison [ Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:17 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
If it wasn't for bad luck you wouldn't have any luck at all, right?
Hey Reed,
Am not leaning toward believing it's "bad luck"... Am more inclined to believe that it's "quantum physics"... The Neils Bohr Copenhagen Explanation Number One: "Observer created reality!"

There was a time when I didn't have a clue as to what all could go wrong with a vehicle. Then I made the mistake of finding out what a complex and temperamental assemblage of strange and wondrous components a vehicle is, and NOW everything that can possibly go wrong, DOES!
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Sorry you are having this string of odd component failures.
This has been happening a LOT recently.
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Hang in there, you will get it sorted.


Reed, Lorrie is just fine at times. BUT at other times, she is just recalcitrant. Sometimes think that she just doesn't like what has been done to her. She's unusual, and one of a kind. Maybe she just wanted to be a postal worker, and she's been turned into Road Warrior looking ride.

Anyway, will be seeing if she will start tomorrow when the temperatures are in the 30s.

Will keep you updated.

JC
Author:  SlantSteve [ Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:18 pm ]
Post subject: 
A 390 with 4.11 gears drivin gently? Naaaah!! Sounds like a very nice ride! Enjoy
Author:  JCAllison [ Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:33 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
A 390 with 4.11 gears drivin gently? Naaaah!! Sounds like a very nice ride! Enjoy
Hey Steve,
Well, I'm 74, and know what it's like to get older. But when Ms. American was NEW, she was a BEAR! Remember '64 was when the Mustang came out. My parents lived near Palm Springs, California, and all the little RICH kids got Mustangs in 1964. My mother liked to tell the story about how one day she as out and about in Ms. American, and a kid in a Mustang pull up next to her at a stop light, and wanted to race.

My mother didn't pay him ANY notice, till the light changed. She squalled the rear tires, took the engine to valve float, threw a speed shift to second, and left the Mustang laying.

The kid pulled up next to her at the next light and said: "Hey lady, that thing really goes!" And my mother said that she replied: "Oh... Were we racing?" :)

Anyway, back to what is happening with Lorrie. What makes an engine not want to start when it's cold? And what can be done about it?

JC
Author:  JCAllison [ Thu Mar 07, 2013 1:18 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hey All,
Thursday Afternoon Update:

Went out this morning at 10:00 a.m. Temperature in the mid 50s.

Checked the Voltage at the Battery = 12.81 Volts.

Checked all the Fuses in the Fuse Panel. All perfect.

Checked for Voltage at the Control Module = 12.59 Volts.

Check the Voltage going to the Ignition Coil - 12.59 Volts.

Gave the Bendix Stromberg Carburetor a shot of Start Fluid. She tried to Start, but didn't. Did it again. She tried to start again. But didn't. Then she gave up trying.

Went back out at 2:00 p.m. Went through the same procedure. Gave her a shot of Start Fluid. She didn't even cough.

Pulled Number Five Spark Plug, laid it against a ground, cranked the Engine, got a big FAT Spark. Put it back into the Cylinder.

Tried to start. Got ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

When Lorrie will start, she runs GREAT. But she won't start all the time.

Am at wit's end with this. Haven't a clue as to what to do next.

Any insights or suggestions would be much appreciated.

Be well.

JC
Author:  Aggressive Ted [ Thu Mar 07, 2013 1:58 pm ]
Post subject: 
This is a long shot........

I am not sure but, I thought I read in one of your posts that you had fused the ignition wiring which goes to the coil.

If true, I am thinking that if the fuse is too small it won't allow the amp draw that is required to run the engine. Especially with an HEI coil.
They can draw a few amps......

Bypass the fuse with a jumper and give it a try.

If it runs, don't use a your current fuse. Use fuseable link wire or a circuit breaker. Either one will carry more amperage to keep all the spark plugs lit.
Author:  JCAllison [ Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:21 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
This is a long shot........
Hey Mr. AT,
Go for it! :)
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I am not sure but, I thought I read in one of your posts that you had fused the ignition wiring which goes to the coil.
There IS a 32 Amp Fuse at the Fuse Panel from which the Run Switch acquires it's electricity to send to the NAPA Echlin TP45 Control Module, and then on to the Ignition Coil. BUT, there is no Fuse in the line between the Run Switch and the Control Module/Ignition Coil. Both are getting everything that the Battery has to give.
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If true, I am thinking that if the fuse is too small it won't allow the amp draw that is required to run the engine. Especially with an HEI coil.
They can draw a few amps......
The Ignition Coil is connected to the Control Module's B Terminal.
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Bypass the fuse with a jumper and give it a try.
No fuse. Nothing to bypass.
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If it runs, don't use a your current fuse. Use fusible link wire or a circuit breaker. Either one will carry more amperage to keep all the spark plugs lit.
Lorrie has an Ammeter in her Stewart Warner Dashboard. It never goes above 30 Amps, and most generally is down between 10 and 12 Amps. And all the Spark Plugs have BIG, FAT Sparks.

Ted, am more and more coming to suspect that the problem is: Flooding.

Just got back from taking out all the NGK ZFR5N Spark Plugs, and with all the plugs removed, turned the Engine with the Starter. LOTS of gasoline smell coming out of the Spark Plug Holes.

The anomaly of all this is that when trying to start Lorrie up, have NOT been giving her any Throttle, and the Choke is about 1/4" away from being closed.

The Bendix Stromberg Carburetor has a really strong shot of gas from the Acceleration Pump. With the Choke Plate propped open and the Throttle Plate open, I can see liquid lying on the floor of the Intake Manifold.

Am going to turn the Idle Mixture screw in till it lightly bottoms, counting the number of turns. Then will back it out 1.5 turns to see if THAT might alleviate the flooding.

Am leaving the Spark Plugs out tonight and will reinstall them tomorrow around 10:00 a.m. and see if Lorrie will start.

Anyway, good thinking about the Fuse. If Lorrie HAD a Fuse in the Wire going to the Ignition Coil, would have done as you suggested. Alas...

JC
Author:  SlantSteve [ Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:56 am ]
Post subject: 
Temp in the 50's isn't really very cold,even by Australian standards.....it certainly shouldn't hinder any form of engine cold start. You mention squirting start fluid down the carb? I don't understand why it needs that procedure. When it's cold,it now has spark....good!!
Now when you pump the gas pedal does it shoot a stream of fuel down the throat of the carb?
Do you have a tank of fresh fuel or has it been sitting for ages?
Do the plugs smell of fuel when you pull them when it won't start after cranking?
Have you tried cranking with the gas pedal to the floor ,eg " flooded start" procedure?
Sorry for all the questions,just trying to get a picture in my mind of what's happening....cheers
Author:  JCAllison [ Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:50 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Temp in the 50's isn't really very cold,even by Australian standards.
Hey Steve,
Here in Deep East Texas, 50 degrees is right at the top of the cool range.
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It certainly shouldn't hinder any form of engine cold start.
Cold here is 29 degrees, though have seen it as far down at 17 degrees. But have to agree, even those temperatures SHOULDN'T hinder starting.
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You mention squirting start fluid down the carb? I don't understand why it needs that procedure.
And even THAT sometimes doesn't make Lorrie cough! Which is why the Ignition System has been suspect. But NOW, am more and more beginning to suspect the Fuel Delivery System might be overly aggressive.
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When it's cold, it now has spark....good!!
With the advent of the NEW NAPA Echlin TP45 Control Module, the NEW NAPA Legend 75 Battery, and the NEW FBO Systems Brand VR-1 Electronic Voltage Regulator, am 99.99% convinced that the HEI System is NOT the problem, though there is some concern that the Mopar Electronic Distributor MIGHT not be putting out a strong enough "trigger" signal to the Control Module. BUT, don't think THAT is the problem.
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Now when you pump the gas pedal does it shoot a stream of fuel down the throat of the carb?
Steve, when opening the Throttle Plate slowly by hand, the Acceleration Pump puts a GREAT shot of gas into the Intake Manifold. In trying to start Lorrie, have not even been touching the Throttle.

The Throttle Plate is completely closed, and THAT may be what is wrong. The Bendix Stromberg Model W Single Throat Carburetor MAY need LESS Idle Mixture Screw to give it less gas, and MORE Cold Idle Screw to give it more air.
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Do you have a tank of fresh fuel or has it been sitting for ages?
What was in the tank up until day before yesterday (Wednesday, March 6, 2013) was a month old. Lorrie got $20.00 worth the FRESH 87 Octane gas last Wednesday.
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Do the plugs smell of fuel when you pull them when it won't start after cranking?
Pulled ALL the NGK ZFR5N Spark Plugs yesterday late afternoon, and the Number 4 Plug was wet with gasoline. The rest of them looked alright. Have left them lying on the seat overnight hoping that they will dry out (if indeed they were soaked). Also, while the plugs were out, cranked the engine with the Starter, and got LOTS of gasoline odor coming out of the Spark Plug Holes.
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Have you tried cranking with the gas pedal to the floor ,eg " flooded start" procedure?
YES. All to no avail.
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Sorry for all the questions, just trying to get a picture in my mind of what's happening....cheers
Good questions all. Same ones that I've been asking.

Again, am more and more convinced that the problem is fuel delivery and not ignition related.

So here's where it stands now:

Have turned the Idle Mixture Screw IN till it became "lightly seated". It was out 2.5 turns. Then turned it back OUT 1.5 turns which will give Lorrie LESS Gas.

Am going to turn the Cold Idle Screw in a bit to open the Throttle Plate a bit which will give Lorrie MORE Air.

Am going to regap the NGK ZFR5N Spark Plugs from 0.045" to 0.035", and reinstall them.

Will see if all that makes any difference.

Will let you know what happens.

Anyway, thanks for the response. It is VERY much appreciated.

JC
Author:  JCAllison [ Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:46 am ]
Post subject: 
Hey All,
As you may or may not recall, went out yesterday, and LORRIE WOULDN'T START!

Pulled ALL the Spark Plugs, and turned the Engine with the Starter. LOTS of Gasoline Fumes. LORRIE is FLOODED. Am discouraged, but not about to give up. So here is the result:

Friday, March 8, 2013 Morning Update:

Re-gapped all six of Lorrie's NGK ZFR5N Spark Plugs to 0.035 and reinstalled them.

Turned the Idle Mixture Screw IN till it was lightly seated (2.5 turns) and then backed it OUT 1.5 turns to hopefully give the Engine LESS Gas.

Turned the Hot Engine Idle Screw IN one turn to hopefully give the Engine MORE Air.

And that's ALL that was done.

Without even getting into the Driver's Seat, reached up and turned on the Run Switch, closed my eyes, and barely touched the Start Switch.

Lorrie's MIGHTY 225 Slant Six didn't EVEN make one revolution before she was running at about an 800 RPM idle!

Checked the Voltage at the Battery, and it was 13.99 Volts.

Brought the Engine up to operating temperature and started adjusting the Idle Mixture Screw.

Turned it OUT 1/4 turn and the RPMs went up.

Turned it OUT another 1/4 turn and the RPMs went down.

Turned it back IN 1/4 turn and the RPMs went back UP.

Turned it IN another 1/4 turn and the RPMs went Down.

Turned it back OUT 1/4 turn and called it "good".

Turned the Hot Engine Idle Speed Screw OUT till the RPMs were at about 600.

Got into the Driver's seat an put the Transmission into Reverse, and the RPMs dropped to about 500.

Put the Transmission into neutral and the RPS went back up to about 600.

Put the Transmission into Drive, and the RPMS dropped to about 500.

All completely smooth as silk.

Lorrie has NEVER sounded happier!

So the big test will be tomorrow morning.

Am going to go out and see if she will start right up again like she did this morning.

In the mean time, am going to go to the Grocery Store in just a bit for a few items.

If Lorrie starts tomorrow morning like she did this morning, am going to reinstall her Removable Floor Panel, and Engine Cabinetry, and we'll go to Livingston to start getting Ms. American's Centrifugal Advance Mechanism Springs and some other stuff.

BUT, as of this moment, Lorrie seems to be willing to live well.

We'll just have to see how she does tomorrow morning. Time will tell.

Be well.

JC
Author:  Aggressive Ted [ Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:59 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
the Mopar Electronic Distributor MIGHT not be putting out a strong enough "trigger" signal to the Control Module.
If you think it could be suspect......It is a quick check...measure the ohm rating. Unplug it and check it at the plug. Should be around 300 ohms.
Author:  DusterIdiot [ Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:18 pm ]
Post subject:  It should be...
Quote:
If you think it could be suspect......It is a quick check...measure the ohm rating. Unplug it and check it at the plug. Should be around 300 ohms.
Factory Manual says the reading should be between 150 and 900 ohms when testing with multimeter, this reading will vary depending on whether a tooth off the reluctor is lined up with the tooth in the pickup coil. (Typically I see about 150-200 with tooth lined up, and about 450-600 with the tooth out of alignment with the pickup, delnding on brand and age of components.)

FYI.
Author:  JCAllison [ Sat Mar 09, 2013 8:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: It should be...
Hey All,
Saturday Morning Update:

Went out this morning at 8:30 a.m. to see if Lorrie would start&run.

Checked the Battery = 12.31 Volts.
Checked the continuity of the Fuses. They were fine.
Gave the Accelerator a 2-second push, and a 2-second release.
Turned on the Run Switch, and activated the Start Switch. Lorrie cranked, but didn't start.
Gave her a short shot of Start Fluid, and hit the Start Switch, and she started right up!

Warmed the Engine up, and checked the Transmission Fluid Level. It was right on.

Checked the Charge Rate. It was 14.13 Volts.

Drove to see neighbor Robert, and back.

Got back and shut down, and then checked the Battery, and it was at 14.01 Volts.

Lorrie's Speedometer Cable needs lubrication.

Am also going to have to take the Dash Panel loose and see why there is no Brights and no Indicator Light when the Headlights are on.

Can't figure why Lorrie won't start without Start Fluid. Am going to have to figure that out.

Anyway, at least Lorrie IS starting&running. Will have to see if she will make the trip to and from Livingston, but am not going to do THAT today. Am not feeling too well. Got a bit over-tired the other day putting Ms. American up on the Jack Stands. Need to rest up from that.

Hope everyone is doing well.

JC
Author:  JCAllison [ Sat Mar 09, 2013 9:19 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
If you think it could be suspect......It is a quick check...measure the ohm rating. Unplug it and check it at the plug. Should be around 300 ohms.
Hey Ted,
Thanks for the heads up. Am not thinking that Lorrie's Mopar Electronic Distributor is going to be a problem, BUT Don Gould at FBO Systems, from whence came the VR-1 Electronic Voltage Regulator, mentioned that it COULD be a problem. And that their ECU would solve the problem. Don is a VERY nice and helpful fellow, and the FBO Systems VR-1 seems to be working really well. Have measured the Voltage going to the battery while Lorrie is idling and it ranges from 13.83 to 14.11 Volts.

Anyway, thanks again for the information. Am going to do the check just to see what it turns out to be.

JC
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