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904 - overdrive options?
https://slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=55641		 Page 4 of 4
Author:  Charrlie_S [ Tue Jul 08, 2014 4:57 am ]
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I have never worked on the B-W overdrive for the Chrysler application. I have worked on the chevy and Ford units. I think the Chry unit is the same.
To reverse with these units, the internal freewheeling clutch needs to be mechanically locked.
Author:  mattelderca [ Tue Jul 08, 2014 5:28 am ]
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Just to stick it out there for thought, as this topic really appears to be just ideas, how about an under drive?
Tall rear gears, tall rear tires, divorced under drive?
Funny? :roll:
Author:  sandy in BC [ Tue Jul 08, 2014 7:15 am ]
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I have used a Ford 3spd with reverse and low removed to make an underdrive. This was a 70s all synchro box from an Econoline.

I made a cradle type crossmember to support it and form the basis for the auto trans/underdrive adpter. I used a clutch hub and drive shaft yoke as the basis for the front coupler.....

All this requires lots of underfloor space. I never road tested the result.

I eventually replaced all this with a 4L60......
Author:  Tim Keith [ Tue Jul 08, 2014 5:52 pm ]
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Quote:
I have used a Ford 3spd with reverse and low removed to make an underdrive. This was a 70s all synchro box from an Econoline.

I made a cradle type crossmember to support it and form the basis for the auto trans/underdrive adpter. I used a clutch hub and drive shaft yoke as the basis for the front coupler.....

All this requires lots of underfloor space. I never road tested the result.

I eventually replaced all this with a 4L60......
Underdrive makes sense. I think the overdrive is used because its cheaper to have a single wide spaced overdrive as it is not as noticeable to the driver. I think that you might want two extra gears at the low end to cover the same spread as an o/d. There is less friction losses with direct drive and the lower numerical differential also has less friction. Some BMWs and other cars use direct drive in this way. The gear oil gets warmer in an o/d transmission than direct drive and the o/d transmission is noisier, although the Laycock uses a planetary gear set that lasts longer than a T5 fifth gear.
Author:  Sam Powell [ Thu Jul 10, 2014 4:36 am ]
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Here is what Glenn wrote in his last email. I think he got tired of replying to my many questions and kind of fired me.

Sam
To be honest ,selling a lot of these is not my main goal. I have a 6-3pm job that im happy with. A lot of my business, is from people who have had a bad experience with GEAR VENDOR INC and they need parts, rebuilds and adapters I make. yes, selling more would be OK. But I have a fair amount of work every weekend if I want it. Once someone put these in a Slant six, it will be easy for everyone who follows. GV just charges an arm and a leg and there kit is overkill for the 170hp. MY Recommendations are as follows: buy a GV 904 adapter kit. buy a laycock overdrive J type, used or rebuilt,w-speedo port, and four bolt rear flange(large flange only) buy an imput shaft for a J type overdrive, buy a spicer rear fixed yoke flange(I have the part #) buy or make a speedo adapter for the laycock overdrive this will make it work on a 7/8 American cable but,I make them. then a new u joint 1350 on one side 1310 on the other side. next a female slip yoke for a 1350 u joint, I will send you a picture later. of some of these parts. so my question is? are you going to do this? GLENN


If I asked for clarification on something he thought he had already answered he would get mad at me. His responses always raised more questions, and when I asked for more info he would jump on me and tell me he answered that question already. For example, what is a 1350 and a 1310 u joint? I never got to ask that. The last question I asked was where to get the rear flange, and I asked for clarification on how his electronic control worked. At that point he quit responding. I guess he could have left town, but I kind of think he figured I was more trouble than I was worth, even though I explained many times I was researching this for other slant sixers. We will see.

Emphasis: you must get a J type overdrive with a speedo port. Not all have them.

Sam
Author:  Greg Ondayko [ Thu Jul 10, 2014 6:50 am ]
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u joints are classified by manufater part #s and dimensions.


here is a handy reference.

http://www.driveshaftspecialist.com/HTM ... Guide.html

Greg
Author:  Sam Powell [ Thu Jul 10, 2014 7:55 am ]
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Thanks Greg. I think maybe I pissed him off when I told him I was going to Carlisle and might buy something there.

Sam
Author:  Tim Keith [ Thu Jul 10, 2014 8:18 pm ]
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Quote:
Emphasis: you must get a J type overdrive with a speedo port. Not all have them.
Its possible to convert the speedometer to GPS. J type laycocks are harder to find than P type. The turbo Volvo 745 had a J type. You might just wait for a used Gear Vendors 904 adapter.

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/14 ... d_builder/
Author:  Tim Keith [ Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:41 pm ]
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Quote:

If I asked for clarification on something he thought he had already answered he would get mad at me. His responses always raised more questions, and when I asked for more info he would jump on me and tell me he answered that question already.
I don't really blame him, at least he answered some questions. Customer support is tedious when building items of this nature. It might be better to say nothing than to give a grumpy response! Nothing is a typical response. Many of us - speaking for myself, tend to be cheapskates and also expect a lot. Maybe he should post a FAQ and caveat emptor, sell on an Ebay store and let the feedback speak for itself. When not striving to build a full time business model the effort needs to have grass roots support. I'd like to get a Laycock and examine it and learn. Its probably not rocket science. I'd like to get up to speed with something like this, but let people know that what they're getting is a low budget project that can work well when they put in some effort, but it won't be easy for a novice. And if they decide its not for them, then hopefully somebody else would buy it and give it a go. Measure twice, cut once, make sure its good when shipped, but be picky who you sell to until there is a base of satisfied customers who then can help provide the grassroots support that is needed to keep people happy. I know of a Mopar flathead era supplier who is somewhat grumpy ( very rushed and busy), but he has a good product and wise people will always deal with him.

This is a Laycock for a flathead six. The kit included the cross member for the truck, only needed a driveshaft mod. This is how it ought to be, but don't expect this to be the norm.

Over Drive installation
http://dodgepowerwagon.com/wwwboard/mes ... 11060.html
Author:  Sam Powell [ Sat Jul 12, 2014 4:39 am ]
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I offered to write his FAQ on this. Of course his job is hard, but that is the nature of on-line business now. The interesting thing is the telephone conversation was great. If anything he talked so much that I could not retain it all. His energy was positive and upbeat, and I was sure there was a future deal in the works. It only got awkward when I sent the email for clarification.

In retrospect I should have simply said, " You get all the parts for me, and tell me how much." I felt like I had to figure this out, and maybe that was the mistake.

I wondered all over the vendors field at Carlisle yesterday, and not a single hint of anyone interested in overdrives of any kind other than A guy dealing Tremecs and t-5 conversion, and another guy with a 518. I think this thinking is too far outside the box at this point, as is the slant for that matter. Out of a show field of maybe 200 A body cars, only three of us that I saw had slants. All the rest had V-8 swaps. We are an endangered species.

I spent the last hour sitting with Greg Ondayko and his freinds Brian and Melissa. We all had slant cars in the show. Greg brought Ruster, and it really garnered a great deal of attention.

Tim Your install on of the Laycock unit looks fabulous. Did you do that, or is that someone else's project? I would be happy to work with you on the Laycock project. I would be happy to buy your finished project if you do not want it yourself, or do whatever you suggest in the way of hands one, or purchasing used. I am pretty good at fabricating. Lou and I kind of worked together through emails and the forum when we both installed the first T-5s back about 12 years ago.

Sam
Author:  Tim Keith [ Sat Jul 12, 2014 9:35 am ]
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Quote:


Tim Your install on of the Laycock unit looks fabulous. Did you do that, or is that someone else's project? I would be happy to work with you on the Laycock project. I would be happy to buy your finished project if you do not want it yourself, or do whatever you suggest in the way of hands one, or purchasing used. I am pretty good at fabricating. Lou and I kind of worked together through emails and the forum when we both installed the first T-5s back about 12 years ago.

Sam
That is Dennis Gronan's Laycock kit for the WDX-WM300 Power Wagon, which he called the DENNAN overdrive (first three of first name and last of his last name). These conversions were somewhat popular but so many who want better cruising speed swap in a V8. Those trucks are stock geared to go about 45 MPH with the six. The only issue is the overdrive must be disabled when using reverse or damage to the Laycock can result. The Volvo has a interlock switch that does that.

I'd like to get a Laycock and learn about it. I'm not sure where I'd go with it. Gronan's complete kit sold for $1,300, which included the cross member and overhauled Laycock. That was a good price considering how much work is involved, but being thrifty not many truck owners bought them. The price was less than half that of the Gear Vendors - which isn't interested in making an overdrive for the Dodge flathead six. Used 904 and 833 Gear vendors show up now and then. There are a few like Gronan who adapt the Laycock but the builders I've contacted didn't want to provide information via email.

I got two Mopar Borg Warner R10s with the transmissions, one would work with my 230 flathead six but its not the same transmission as used in my 1947 truck. The OEM R-10 transmissions had a hole for a rod that activated the kickdown. I don't have a shifter for these R-10 transmissions as they were both three speed column shifted. The R-10 is great for the period vehicles, not so good to use for later models. A
man named George Asche in Venus PA is knowledgeable about the R-10, he would be a good resource on those.
Author:  Dart270 [ Sun Jul 13, 2014 4:17 am ]
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For all this trouble, it would seem that using the Wilcap plate and picking any GM trans you like would be sensible? There are about 12 of these plates floating around out there and only one in use that I know. I am about to use one of mine with a 200-4R in the turbo car, but it could take me 6-12 months to get to it. I mocked up the plate when I had the A500 out to swap converters and it looked reasonable in there.

Total cost will be somewhere in the $2700-3000 range for a Wilcap plate/kit plus a well built new 200-4R with converter (extremeautomatics.com). I will not do another group buy for quite a while as I am still burned out from the last one. Seems like I can do one of these about every 3-5 years so that I can forget how terrible the leg work was on the last one... If someone else wants to organize with Wilcap, they have the patterns and will make them. I can make initial contacts if you like.

I will try to make Carlisle a priority next year. I agree that our cars are rare and very attractive to show goers now. I drove my 64 Valiant to our local cruise (50 cars, 5 mopars) last night. My car got as much attention as almost anything there (perfect 39 Buick Roadmaster was a fave), and it is rusty, faded paint, dirty engine compartment..... I didn't feel like washing one of the Darts so I took the car that doesn't look any better when you wash it. :P

Best,

Lou
Author:  Sam Powell [ Sun Jul 13, 2014 3:10 pm ]
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I am sure you are right Lou. When I got excited about this, no one was in the mood to sell a Wilcap adapter. I contacted them, and started a thread to get another group buy started, and there was zero interest in another group buy. I know you offered one to me, but I knew you had plans for it and I did not want to take advantage of your generous spirit. This path will eventually work itself out.

I am glad you got to a car cruise in. I hope you take your 64 next time. FWIW I never wash or wax my car for these events. I do dust it off with one of those big dust magnet things.

Sam
Author:  Dart270 [ Mon Jul 14, 2014 6:34 am ]
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Thanks, Sam. I am pretty sure that Wilcap would do a one-off kit if you pay them ~$100 over the "net jobber" price.

Lou
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