Quote:
Start with a hunk of billet aluminum.
Cut off everything that you don't need.
Done.
Howard Davis did exactly that. I have a suspicion of how much it cost, but no hard data. Cut off everything that you don't need.
Done.
| Slant Six Forum https://slantsix.org/forum/ |
|
| aluminum slant six head from 1959? https://slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=63187 |
Page 4 of 7 |
| Author: | slantzilla [ Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: aluminum slant six head from 1959? |
Quote: Start with a hunk of billet aluminum.
Howard Davis did exactly that. I have a suspicion of how much it cost, but no hard data. Cut off everything that you don't need. Done.
|
|
| Author: | Tim Keith [ Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:44 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: aluminum slant six head from 1959? |
A new head has to also deal with pistons. If you want a quench chamber then a zero deck piston/rod combination is necessary. Many will want no more than 9:0 cr, that might require a zero deck dished piston. Those who wanted higher compression would choose a flat top piston. Is this a reasonable concern? I think the 7-inch rod would be a good choice for the baseline. Even with stock piston/rod the compression ratio would be more optimal with the smaller chambers, but the best configuration to design for would be 7-inch rod/zero deck piston. The alloy head deck can't be milled as much as the iron head - unless its designed to be beefy there. It might be best to go to Ross or some other piston supplier and have them build a custom dished piston etc., and the OEM piston users might deck the block and leave the alloy head "as is". Edelbrock would not likely build a head unless it works well with the OEM piston. I have a Geo Metro with 9.8 cr and a simple 2 valve combustion chamber and it does well with 87 octane - its got some quench - I'd want quench as much as greater flow. Now, back to eating my quarter pounder 
|
|
| Author: | jcc [ Fri Mar 01, 2019 8:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: aluminum slant six head from 1959? |
Both quench and alum material i would think would allow a point(?) higher then then 9:1. |
|
| Author: | Tim Keith [ Fri Mar 01, 2019 8:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: aluminum slant six head from 1959? |
My little Suzuki G10 (3 cyl 1.0 liter Metro) has 2.80-inch bore and 9.8:1 cr. Its happy with 87 octane gasoline. The small bore is likely part of that. Its alloy, tiny valves but no problem with cheap gas. But the Suzuki G13B ( four cyl 1.3 litre twin cam version) has almost 11:1 cr and requires 92 octane. The camshaft is economy oriented on the single cam G10, not so much for the other ( 50 mpg vs 35 mpg ). The 4 makes almost twice as much power. I'm sure the same general variance will also be true with the slant six depending upon camshaft. I'd like to see an alloy head, but the Montana flathead machinist rate is only $75/hr and yet their custom F-head is $9,000+. If you read the fine print there is other custom machine work that is recommended at an extra cost. I didn't sign up . They're into this as much for fun, but they can't lose money either. When Earl did the prototype 15 years ago his cost was $6,500 and he did almost everything himself.
|
|
| Author: | GregCon [ Sat Mar 02, 2019 4:40 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: aluminum slant six head from 1959? |
Prototyping is always expensive....but $9K for a flathead? That just suggests the people doing it don't have control of what they're doing and are compensating by passing their inefficiencies on to the next guy. If you know casting and have all the usual contacts and suppliers needed to really be in the business, your costs are gonna show that. |
|
| Author: | jcc [ Sat Mar 02, 2019 4:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: aluminum slant six head from 1959? |
Educate me, what is the difference between "prototyping", and say throwing a CI Slant head on the bench and saying make a casting copy out of alum? What changes would likely be necessary beyond if the only initial change was in material? |
|
| Author: | Badvert65 [ Sat Mar 02, 2019 5:56 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: aluminum slant six head from 1959? |
Quote: Educate me, what is the difference between "prototyping", and say throwing a CI Slant head on the bench and saying make a casting copy out of alum?
I was wondering the same thing. Take a Mike Jeffries reworked head and make a cast aluminum copy.
What changes would likely be necessary beyond if the only initial change was in material? |
|
| Author: | DadTruck [ Sat Mar 02, 2019 6:41 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: aluminum slant six head from 1959? |
I have some experience in the foundry business, was I the engineer in charge of launching new cylinder head tooling back in the 80’s. Let me offer this: You don’t just put a similar product on a bench and somehow a new product appears alongside of it. In casting, along with tooling to produce the molds that make the outside and inside of the casting and cores that make the inside of the casting, provisions need to be made to develop gating. Gating is the pathway that the molten metal takes to get from the ladle that holds the liquid metal to the mold that holds the casting shape and cores. The overall size, proportions and where the gates attach to the casting are all important to ending up with a casting that is serviceable, free of inclusion defects, shrinks, gas porosity and so forth. There are computer modeling that can point one in the right direction concerning gating, but almost always, there needs to be some fine tuning. And that fine tuning comes from making castings, having them x rayed, cut up and the casting soundness verified. In conjunction with the trial runs to verify casting integrity, those early casting runs and section cuts need to also be verified for dimensional integrity. As the molten metal hits the mold and cores, they distort and move. You don't want port walls that are .450 thick on one side and .050 thick on the other. Part of the dimensional verification is checking to see that the 'shrink ' was properly applied. Molten iron-aluminum expands when it is hot and shrinks when it becomes solid. A general rule is iron shrinks 1/16 inch per foot. Hence the molds - cores are approx. 1/16 inch per linear foot oversize, then the final casting is the size you want. Heavy - thick areas shrink more than thin areas, and there is computer modeling that can help get that right, but it still takes trials and at times adjustments. The early trials are also used to verify that the assumptions made for productivity and casting yield are accurate. The company producing the casting made some assumptions on cycle time and yield to be able to produce the part at a given price. The early runs of castings that will be cut up for dimensional and metallurgical inspection can be used to verify that the bid price is fair. The prototype runs become the foundation for the final product. The prototype period is all about: data collection, destructive testing and evaluation and corrections. And that is why prototypes cost money. You are buying the data that supports the assumption that the production product is fit for use. |
|
| Author: | jcc [ Sat Mar 02, 2019 6:46 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: aluminum slant six head from 1959? |
Meaning, the work/effort is not in making the head, but in making a usable effective casting mold design, and having to start from scratch? So I would assume Edelbrock would be at the front of the pack in the expertise in that area just by shear numbers of heads marketed, correct? |
|
| Author: | CNC-Dude [ Sat Mar 02, 2019 6:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: aluminum slant six head from 1959? |
Quote: I have some experience in the foundry business, was the engineer in charge of launching new cylinder head tooling back in the 80’s.
Those are often misconceptions that person's with no knowledge of how casting parts actually works. I have manufactured an aluminum inline race head for almost 10 years now. And in the past 2 years, I have designed and cast 3 new performance intake designs for that same inline engine as well. Many enthusiasts think that since the casting process is relatively simple, you can take an existing part and make a mold or pattern from it and presto, you have a new casting. As DadTruck pointed out, the process is much more complex than that. The patterns and cores themselves have to actually be around 1-1/2% to 2% larger that the actually part itself. As mentioned, molten metal expands by the amount mentioned until it cools. Plus, you also have to allow and add extra material in the patterns to compensate for the areas that need machining such as intake runner flanges, carb mounting pads, etc....Let me offer this: You don’t just put a similar product on a bench and somehow a new product appears. In casting, along with tooling to produce the molds that make the outside and inside of the casting and cores that make the inside of the casting, provisions need to be made to develop hating. Gating is the pathway that the molten metal takes to get from the ladle that holds the liquid metal to the mold that holds the casting shape and cores. As for added features for an aluminum head, you want to go far beyond what is available now or in the past with ported heads. Simply copying what has already been done still brings you to a dead end since the need and potential of a new head should take you where you've never been before. |
|
| Author: | Badvert65 [ Sat Mar 02, 2019 7:16 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: aluminum slant six head from 1959? |
Quote: The patterns and cores themselves have to actually be around 1-1/2% to 2% larger that the actually part itself. As mentioned, molten metal expands by the amount mentioned until it cools. Plus, you also have to allow and add extra material in the patterns to compensate for the areas that need machining such as intake runner flanges, carb mounting pads, etc....
That is something I had not considered. I assumed it was a lot more complicated than it looked and now I have some explanation of the subtleties of the casting process. Good to know.
|
|
| Author: | CNC-Dude [ Sat Mar 02, 2019 7:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: aluminum slant six head from 1959? |
Quote: Quote: The patterns and cores themselves have to actually be around 1-1/2% to 2% larger that the actually part itself. As mentioned, molten metal expands by the amount mentioned until it cools. Plus, you also have to allow and add extra material in the patterns to compensate for the areas that need machining such as intake runner flanges, carb mounting pads, etc....
That is something I had not considered. I assumed it was a lot more complicated than it looked and now I have some explanation of the subtleties of the casting process. Good to know. |
|
| Author: | GregCon [ Sat Mar 02, 2019 10:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: aluminum slant six head from 1959? |
So....if you've done it for 10 years...you're our man for the job! I'll take one - if the price is low enough - but only after you've produced enough to prove that they are trouble free, fit properly, and add lots and lots of extra power. If you could try to have this wrapped up by mid-April that would be great, thanks! |
|
| Author: | CNC-Dude [ Sat Mar 02, 2019 11:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: aluminum slant six head from 1959? |
Yeah.....I'll get right on it! LOL |
|
| Author: | slantzilla [ Sat Mar 02, 2019 2:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: aluminum slant six head from 1959? |
I know you at one time claimed you were going to do a Slant head. I think I also remember why it didn't happen. IIRC, it was lack of serious interest in an alloy head, right? |
|
| Page 4 of 7 | All times are UTC-07:00 |
| Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Limited https://www.phpbb.com/ |
|