Slant Six Forum :: First Attempt to Start Help Needed

Quote:

One of my above questions asked if the car would start if the ballast resistor was bad. Nobody answered the question. Prior SS posts suggested the 73 and up 225s would not crank if the ballast resistor was bad.

It is my understanding that the car will crank and fire even if the ballast is bad, it will just immediately die after that (thats what it has done on all of mine.

Bought a new coil today. Did all the tests on it with multimeter. The new coil had the same readings as the old coil.

Using the multimeter I put the red lead in one end of the wire and the black end in the other end of the coil/distributor wire expecting the multimeter to go from 1 to zero. It bounced around 16 and never went to zero. Could this be the problem?

One way to check is to put your multimeter on the 20V setting, then place one probe on the brown wire that is connected to the coil. Then place the other probe on the end that hooks to the ballast resistor.

Turn the ignition on to energize the circuit. If there is a voltage reading above .2v, then I would replace the coil primary wire (the brown one obviously).

~THOR~

Who sells Chrysler wires with the correct colors & tracers?

Quote:

first of all, 16 what. 16 ohms is very low, 16K ohms sounds more like it.
if 16 ohms or less you could have a solid core wire set. These are usually used on industrial equipment and the slant did come in an industrial version so it is possible. Rather than a carbon filament in the wire it uses copper braid. I have encountered these numerous times on industrial engines, they are used in situations where RFI and EMI noise suppression is not required. On cars with electronic ignition they can cause confusion to the ignition module due to EMI noise. More on ignition wires here: http://www.magnecor.com/magnecor1/truth.htm

however if you have points ignition then this is not your problem, solid core wires with near zero resistance will not cause a no-start. High resistance in the plug wires is normal, as stated to suppress RFI and EMI noise. you dont want it too high though. are these new wires? primary wires and other wires in the system are completely different, you want as low a resistance as possible in them.

Quote:

I pulled both plugs from the ballast resistor. (The prong with the brown wire also has a dark green wire with a red tracer.) I also disconnected the other prong from the other side of the ballast. I put the multimeter on 20V, placed one probe in the plug with the brown wire, laid the multimeter on top of the carburator, hooked the other multimeter probe to the + coil (brown wire), and turned on the ignition without cranking. The multimeter went to .46.

Then I reconnected the plugs to the ballast resistor, touched the multimeter probe to the prong on the resistor where the brown wire plugs in, and checked the multimeter again as I turned on the ignition (without cranking). This time it read .27.

If you are correct, then it is time to replace the brown 18 gauge wire. I still want to know where the break in the wire is.

Who sells Chrysler wires with the correct colors & tracers?

You did check and adjust the pickup in the dizzy right?

The EI module is well grounded too?

What model of Multimeter do you have? Hopefully it isn't a Harbor Freight (or similar) version, those things suck rocks.

Quote:

Multimeter set at 20k reading 17.25 - 17.3
Multimeter set at 200k reading 17.4 - 17.5
Multimeter set at 2000k reading 017

Thank you. this is fine for coil wires. Since we're not talking about the coil anymore im assuming youre sore that you bought a coil based on my advice and it "tests the same" as the old one.

I took a look through your past postings and noticed a picture, it looks as though your car has just been painted black, correct? including the engine compartment? in that case i would second thor and ted's advice to verify proper grounding of the ECU case and report back to us.

http://www.actron.com/product_category.php?id=252
which meter do you have?

Advance Auto will accept the return if I want to. I have given them a lot of business in 3 1/2 years.

The resistance between the two screw terminals should be a couple/few ohms, and resistance between either screw terminal, preferably the negative one, and the coil output tower in the centre should be about 10K give or take.

Author:	74DartSport [ Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:53 am ]
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Thanks Reed. I will now use the multimeter to test wires and connections from the battery forward as other members have suggested. I spent a lot of time last night studying wiring diagrams to see where each wire and the color of each wire traversed in the engine/dash compartment.

Author:	gerry240 [ Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:23 am ]
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Quote: Quote: One of my above questions asked if the car would start if the ballast resistor was bad. Nobody answered the question. Prior SS posts suggested the 73 and up 225s would not crank if the ballast resistor was bad. It is my understanding that the car will crank and fire even if the ballast is bad, it will just immediately die after that (thats what it has done on all of mine. I was always told this too but discovered that it isn't always true. My 74 Dart (4 post ballast resistor) would usually have a hard time starting after I put it on the road a few years ago. I changed almost everything in the ignition system and couldn't get it to fire up consistently. I realized after a while that you could crank it over until the battery died and not get even a sputter out of it but if I cranked for just a second or two and then let off it would sputter/start as the key returned to run position. The ballast resistor was bad. Man, I spend hours trying to figure this out and it turned out to be the easiest thing to change. I'm going by memory so don't quote me on the exact measurements but a good 4 post ballast resistor should measure 1.3ish ohm on one resistor and 5.8ish on the other. I assume that the 1.3 resistor is for starting (low resistance to give full voltage to the coil) and the 5.8 (added resistance to reduce coil voltage) is for the engine running state. Mine must have been bad on the 1.3. Just wanted to share my experience with a bad ballast in case the same thing happens to someone else. If I hadn't heard the old "a bad ballast will let it start but it will die when the key goes back to run" so many times over the years I probably would have found my problem much sooner. I'm guessing it is true for the 2 post ballast and SOMETIMES for the 4 post.

Author:	Aggressive Ted [ Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:34 am ]
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gerry240, Mine used to be the same way. So after much reading here on the site, I got bold and went with the upgrade, rewired the ends from the 4 wire configuration to the two wire and installed the MSD Blaster resistor that comes with the coil. Now the engine barely turns over and it's running.... Much, much easier on the starter!

Author:	THOR [ Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:05 pm ]
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This is something that D.I., Slantsixbob, and I had an issue with on his '72 Valiant. Turned out to be a bad coil primary wire. One way to check is to put your multimeter on the 20V setting, then place one probe on the brown wire that is connected to the coil. Then place the other probe on the end that hooks to the ballast resistor. Turn the ignition on to energize the circuit. If there is a voltage reading above .2v, then I would replace the coil primary wire (the brown one obviously). Once we figured that out on the Valiant, it back-fired right up! This test is called a Voltage Drop test. You are so close! ~THOR~

Author:	steponmebbbboom [ Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:48 pm ]
Post subject:
Quote: Bought a new coil today. Did all the tests on it with multimeter. The new coil had the same readings as the old coil. And what were those readings, and how did you do it. You said the advance auto store manager set his multimeter to 20K ohms and tested the coil terminals and the meter went to zero. That means the coil is shorted. Your meter should NEVER go to zero when testing the coil. The resistance between the two screw terminals should be a couple/few ohms, and resistance between either screw terminal, preferably the negative one, and the coil output tower in the centre should be about 10K give or take. If your new coil is reading zero then either it is defective, or your meter is, or youre using it wrong. Tell us more about how you tested this coil please. If your meter is defective you will be spun right completely around trying to test things. Quote: Using the multimeter I put the red lead in one end of the wire and the black end in the other end of the coil/distributor wire expecting the multimeter to go from 1 to zero. It bounced around 16 and never went to zero. Could this be the problem? first of all, 16 what. 16 ohms is very low, 16K ohms sounds more like it. if 16 ohms or less you could have a solid core wire set. These are usually used on industrial equipment and the slant did come in an industrial version so it is possible. Rather than a carbon filament in the wire it uses copper braid. I have encountered these numerous times on industrial engines, they are used in situations where RFI and EMI noise suppression is not required. On cars with electronic ignition they can cause confusion to the ignition module due to EMI noise. More on ignition wires here: http://www.magnecor.com/magnecor1/truth.htm however if you have points ignition then this is not your problem, solid core wires with near zero resistance will not cause a no-start. High resistance in the plug wires is normal, as stated to suppress RFI and EMI noise. you dont want it too high though. are these new wires? primary wires and other wires in the system are completely different, you want as low a resistance as possible in them. dont think theres anything else i can clarify here, lets just move on til the problem is solved...

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First Attempt to Start Help Needed https://slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32868	Page 5 of 8

Author:	74DartSport [ Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:13 pm ]
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Quote: One way to check is to put your multimeter on the 20V setting, then place one probe on the brown wire that is connected to the coil. Then place the other probe on the end that hooks to the ballast resistor. Turn the ignition on to energize the circuit. If there is a voltage reading above .2v, then I would replace the coil primary wire (the brown one obviously). ~THOR~ I pulled both plugs from the ballast resistor. (The prong with the brown wire also has a dark green wire with a red tracer.) I also disconnected the other prong from the other side of the ballast. I put the multimeter on 20V, placed one probe in the plug with the brown wire, laid the multimeter on top of the carburator, hooked the other multimeter probe to the + coil (brown wire), and turned on the ignition without cranking. The multimeter went to .46. Then I reconnected the plugs to the ballast resistor, touched the multimeter probe to the prong on the resistor where the brown wire plugs in, and checked the multimeter again as I turned on the ignition (without cranking). This time it read .27. If you are correct, then it is time to replace the brown 18 gauge wire. I still want to know where the break in the wire is. Who sells Chrysler wires with the correct colors & tracers?

Author:	Reed [ Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:19 pm ]
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Quote: Who sells Chrysler wires with the correct colors & tracers? The junkyard!

Author:	74DartSport [ Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:32 pm ]
Post subject:
Quote: Quote: Using the multimeter I put the red lead in one end of the wire and the black end in the other end of the coil/distributor wire expecting the multimeter to go from 1 to zero. It bounced around 16 and never went to zero. Could this be the problem? first of all, 16 what. 16 ohms is very low, 16K ohms sounds more like it. if 16 ohms or less you could have a solid core wire set. These are usually used on industrial equipment and the slant did come in an industrial version so it is possible. Rather than a carbon filament in the wire it uses copper braid. I have encountered these numerous times on industrial engines, they are used in situations where RFI and EMI noise suppression is not required. On cars with electronic ignition they can cause confusion to the ignition module due to EMI noise. More on ignition wires here: http://www.magnecor.com/magnecor1/truth.htm Multimeter set at 20k reading 17.25 - 17.3 Multimeter set at 200k reading 17.4 - 17.5 Multimeter set at 2000k reading 017 Quote: however if you have points ignition then this is not your problem, solid core wires with near zero resistance will not cause a no-start. High resistance in the plug wires is normal, as stated to suppress RFI and EMI noise. you dont want it too high though. are these new wires? primary wires and other wires in the system are completely different, you want as low a resistance as possible in them. Car has always been electronic ignition. Sparkplug wires and coil wire are not new.

Author:	THOR [ Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:45 pm ]
Post subject:
Quote: Quote: One way to check is to put your multimeter on the 20V setting, then place one probe on the brown wire that is connected to the coil. Then place the other probe on the end that hooks to the ballast resistor. Turn the ignition on to energize the circuit. If there is a voltage reading above .2v, then I would replace the coil primary wire (the brown one obviously). ~THOR~ I pulled both plugs from the ballast resistor. (The prong with the brown wire also has a dark green wire with a red tracer.) I also disconnected the other prong from the other side of the ballast. I put the multimeter on 20V, placed one probe in the plug with the brown wire, laid the multimeter on top of the carburator, hooked the other multimeter probe to the + coil (brown wire), and turned on the ignition without cranking. The multimeter went to .46. Then I reconnected the plugs to the ballast resistor, touched the multimeter probe to the prong on the resistor where the brown wire plugs in, and checked the multimeter again as I turned on the ignition (without cranking). This time it read .27. If you are correct, then it is time to replace the brown 18 gauge wire. I still want to know where the break in the wire is. Who sells Chrysler wires with the correct colors & tracers? Thats not too bad. I would still replace it. .5v can make a difference between spark and no spark. There may not be a "break" in the wire, it may just be the terminal ends, or the wire itself may be corroded a bit inside the insulation. That's the nice thing about replacing the wire, you replace the terminals on the ends, and are therefor guaranteed a better connection! You did check and adjust the pickup in the dizzy right? The EI module is well grounded too? What model of Multimeter do you have? Hopefully it isn't a Harbor Freight (or similar) version, those things suck rocks. ~THOR~

Author:	74DartSport [ Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:10 pm ]
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Quote: You did check and adjust the pickup in the dizzy right? No. How do you do that? Quote: The EI module is well grounded too? It's a brand new 5 prong Electronic Ignition control. Is there a special way to ground it? Quote: What model of Multimeter do you have? Hopefully it isn't a Harbor Freight (or similar) version, those things suck rocks. Brand name is Actron. Purchased from Advance Auto.

Author:	Aggressive Ted [ Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:42 pm ]
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74DartSport, The pick up coil in the distributor should read around 300 ohms. The ECU case and also the Voltage regulator case have to be grounded to work correctly. If yours are painted you may need to scrape the paint off where the bolt goes through. I ran an extra wire from the ECU to a ground stud to be sure it was well grounded. I then ran another wire from the stud to the negative battery terminal. Since the voltage regulator is near the alternator you can ground it to the case. Is your engine ground strap from the head still bolted to the firewall?

Author:	steponmebbbboom [ Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:07 pm ]
Post subject:
Quote: Quote: Quote: Using the multimeter I put the red lead in one end of the wire and the black end in the other end of the coil/distributor wire expecting the multimeter to go from 1 to zero. It bounced around 16 and never went to zero. Could this be the problem? first of all, 16 what. 16 ohms is very low, 16K ohms sounds more like it. if 16 ohms or less you could have a solid core wire set. These are usually used on industrial equipment and the slant did come in an industrial version so it is possible. Rather than a carbon filament in the wire it uses copper braid. I have encountered these numerous times on industrial engines, they are used in situations where RFI and EMI noise suppression is not required. On cars with electronic ignition they can cause confusion to the ignition module due to EMI noise. More on ignition wires here: http://www.magnecor.com/magnecor1/truth.htm Multimeter set at 20k reading 17.25 - 17.3 Multimeter set at 200k reading 17.4 - 17.5 Multimeter set at 2000k reading 017 Thank you. this is fine for coil wires. Since we're not talking about the coil anymore im assuming youre sore that you bought a coil based on my advice and it "tests the same" as the old one. Yet this quote is a perfect example of why that happened: My advice is only as good as the information you provide. So please be thorough in describing what you test, how you tested it and the readings you got. I took a look through your past postings and noticed a picture, it looks as though your car has just been painted black, correct? including the engine compartment? in that case i would second thor and ted's advice to verify proper grounding of the ECU case and report back to us. http://www.actron.com/product_category.php?id=252 which meter do you have?

Author:	74DartSport [ Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:19 pm ]
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Quote: Thank you. this is fine for coil wires. Since we're not talking about the coil anymore im assuming youre sore that you bought a coil based on my advice and it "tests the same" as the old one. Not mad. You are trying to help me. Advance Auto will accept the return if I want to. I have given them a lot of business in 3 1/2 years. Quote: I took a look through your past postings and noticed a picture, it looks as though your car has just been painted black, correct? including the engine compartment? in that case i would second thor and ted's advice to verify proper grounding of the ECU case and report back to us. Entire car including engine compartment has been painted black. (Body reflects like a mirror.) I will ground the ECU and voltage regulator as they recommended. Quote: http://www.actron.com/product_category.php?id=252 which meter do you have? Actron CP7672. Really appreciate your help. Do you do automotive repairs professionally or as a hobby?

Author:	steponmebbbboom [ Wed Dec 31, 2008 6:47 pm ]
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Quote: Advance Auto will accept the return if I want to. I have given them a lot of business in 3 1/2 years. OK, let's review your test method of the coil. Quote: The resistance between the two screw terminals should be a couple/few ohms, and resistance between either screw terminal, preferably the negative one, and the coil output tower in the centre should be about 10K give or take. is this how you tested it? What did the store do if they didnt get zero on their meter. Do you? Let's get the test method and results straight before putting the coil out-of-mind. Quote: actron CP7672. that meter should be fine for most of what you do but i have experienced problems with the cheaper meters getting confused with RFI and EMI when testing with the engine running. if you are new to multimeters this behaviour of the meter will in turn, confuse you. radio shack used to sell a great entry-level meter under their house brand for $80 before they closed their canadian offices, i dont know what their line-up is now. if you buy an entry-level FLUKE meter down-the-road you can rest assured, these are available at electrical contractor supply stores like NEDCO and Westburne/Ruddy Electric but count on a little more than $30. youre welcome~

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Author:	THOR [ Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:34 am ]
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Fluke meters are awesome. You can get a decent meter from SEARS for around 25 bucks. I have one, and have tested it against an entry-level fluke meter that we have in college, and they both read within .1 of eachother on voltage and resistance tests. Plus, they are durable as heck! In either case, if the underhood was painted, it defenitely sounds like the grounding situation could use a check. The ground strap that bolts to the head and goes to the firewall is definitely an important part. I ground my EI units and voltage regulators there when they are in the vicinity. Otherwise, an extra strap to the inner fender, or battery will do. The pickup is tested easily. Grab your multimeter, disconnect the plug from the dizzy (should have a white and a brown wire on it), remove dizzy, then place each lead into the plug. Set your multimeter to 2000 Ohms. Rotate the dizzy to where one of the star points (there are 6) so that none are pointed toward the magnetic pickup where the white/brown wires lead. Note resistance measurement. It should be a minimum of 300, but a higher number (up to 450 or so) will still work. Then rotate the dizzy so that one of the star points is lined up directly with the tip of the pickup coming out of the magnet (the black block). Note resistance there as well. The resistance should drop a significant amount (down to less than 100 ohms for sure). If they are close to within these ranges, you CAN but probably don't NEED to adjust the pickup. If the measurements are off, or if you want to set it anyways just to be sure, here is how you do it: 1. Get a Feeler Gauge set (can be found at any auto parts store) 2. Rotate the gauges until you come to the one that is .008". 3. Rotate the dizzy until a star point is lined up with the point on the magnet block. 4. Insert feeler gauge between the two points. If the feeler has some resistance to passing through the two points, they are probably ok. If it is too tight, loosen the flat-head screw and move the magnet away from the star point until the feeler gauge will pass through with little resistance. If it is too loose, then do the opposite, and move the magnet closer to the star point. Voila! Then always spin the dizzy and make sure that none of the star points hit the magnet. If you really want to be thorough, check all of the star points against the magnet. You will want to set the gap with the feeler gauge to the one that is closest to the pickup to start with. One small tip: When you have found the star point you are going to use for adjustment, set it perfectly aligned with the point on the magnet, and then use a piece of Duct tape (or similar, electrical tape works too), and wrap it around the gear at the bottom, and the base of the dizzy body, this will keep the shaft from rotating during check/adjustment. Believe me, its a bit of a pain to do with 2 hands and no tape. Let us know what your readings are! ~THOR~