why not just machine a piece of billet and block to fit ..then top of cylinders wont move
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| Author: | 66aCUDA [ Sun Jan 31, 2010 6:27 am ] |
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Quote: OK.....so how about an aluminum insert specifically made for the particular block?
RogerDress the tops of the cylinders for a snug fit, and "glue" the outer perimeter of the deck plate to the block. You could even drill & tap around the top edge to hold it in place at the deck surface. I would think that expansion characteristics would be negligable(sp?) with that small amount of the epoxy in there. Roger That would most likely work for the epoxy. But I would think the aluminum plate would warp unless the fasteners would hold it in place as well. Frank |
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| Author: | hantayo13 [ Sun Jan 31, 2010 6:52 am ] |
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why not just machine a piece of billet and block to fit ..then top of cylinders wont move
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| Author: | passing you [ Sun Jan 31, 2010 9:30 am ] |
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how bout the belzona repair on the cylinders instead of a whole deck made of it? |
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| Author: | sandy in BC [ Sun Jan 31, 2010 9:44 am ] |
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GTS 225's suggestion is similar to mine. I went further by suggesting bolting/epoxying a new deck that was then bored for pressing in new liners. The amount of expoxy to shrink is small. The alum top deck should have a coE similar to the block. One could do most of this process at home before it was sent for boring. |
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| Author: | GTS225 [ Sun Jan 31, 2010 11:35 am ] |
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Well, I wasn't thinking of overboring or new cylinder liners. I was only going as far as stabilization of the tops of the cylinders, with the added benefit of a larger gasket sealing surface. Could a new deck surface warp?....Sure, but if it was say, .500-.750 thick, then the chance for warpage would be considerably reduced. I suspect the stability would be dramatically improved, and with a shoulder on all six cylinders for the deck to rest on, sealing would also get a healthy improvement. I wasn't suggesting to cut the cylinders all the way back to the liners, although that may work out quite well for stability. Just an "eyeball engineer's" far-fetched idea to consider. Roger |
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| Author: | Kevin Johnson [ Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:39 pm ] |
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Lou, I think you have it. Go for it. I see that you are paying attention to the head being fastened to the block rather than the plate. One should not go one step forward and two steps back. One exercise that people should do is to create blueprints of how exact the alignment of the fastener holes are to the bores on their block as well as how mutually aligned the bores are. These blueprints should be compared. The reason is that you need some way to divine consistency for indexing. If every part needs to be individually measured/made and likely without the benefit of a CMM, I see expensive and rough waters ahead. I have done this exercise for other engines for various fasteners and components and the results can be quite dramatic. When I did this exercise for a particular slant six part five times, in each case the part was different whereas heretofore it was considered to be the same. |
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| Author: | Dart270 [ Mon Feb 01, 2010 6:22 am ] |
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Anybody know what is the thermal expansion coeff for block filler (block rock)? I will look into making a steel top plate of 0.100-0.150" thick, and I will consider thermal expansion differences. Unless some moderator is deleting parts of posts, I see no problem with this thread. Thanks very much for everyone's thoughts. Many minds are better than one or two... I may try the iron block spray painted aluminum too, thanks D.  Lou |
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| Author: | Kidd [ Mon Feb 01, 2010 7:17 am ] |
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I want to add a quick story.I may also add I DONT havre an al. slant.....just iron blacks. ok, I was drag racing up in OR. and was driving thru the piuts to the staging lanes.A guy came up to me and wanted to know about my slant.When I was dont telling him about it, he asked about me not running an aluminum block.I told him about the head sealing, and me running 12:1 compression. He then told me that he drag raced many years ago w/ 6's. And that they ran aluminum slants.I asked about the head sealing,and he said they used a steel plate.What he said (what I took him as saying) is they machined a bit off the whole top of the block maybe 3/8?? and then machined the threads, and cyl bores...he said they ran 14:1 compression.....this was a drag only engine....maybe I should hasve asked if there was block filler or water in the block!!! This is just my 2 cents.... Andrew/kidd |
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| Author: | Kevin Johnson [ Mon Feb 01, 2010 10:28 am ] |
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Quote: Anybody know what is the thermal expansion coeff for block filler (block rock)?
HARD BLOK ENGINE BLOCK FILLER I will look into making a steel top plate of 0.100-0.150" thick, and I will consider thermal expansion differences. Unless some moderator is deleting parts of posts, I see no problem with this thread. Thanks very much for everyone's thoughts. Many minds are better than one or two... I may try the iron block spray painted aluminum too, thanks D. Lou Description: Hard Blok Water Jacket Filler Is A Specially Formulated, Cement-Based Product With Refined, Size-Graded Iron Particles Combined At An Optimum Ratio To Provide Maximum Strength, Vibration Dampening, And Heat Dissipation Required In High Performance Race Engines. Its Coefficient Of Thermal Expansion Is Identical To Cast Iron Engine Blocks. Product Has Been Tested And Proven Effective In Aluminum Blocks. * Remains Stable At All Operating Temperatures. Does Not Soften When Exposed To High Heat, Nor Erode Under Water. * Fills The Smallest Spaces In The Water Jacket. Does Not Shrink Or Pull Away From The Cylinder Walls. Does Not Expand. * Extends Cylinder Wall Life Both By Preventing Cracked Walls And By Causing The Walls To Wear Truer. Honing Is Minimized During Rebuilds. * A Race-Proven Advantage Used By Winners In All Types Of Racing Since 1986. * Non-Hazardous And Non-Corrosive. Contains No Toxic Material. Once Hard, It Cannot Be Removed From The Block. Notes: Block Castings Are Not Precise. One Side May Vary From The Other. Variance Between Blocks Can Be Considerable. Edit: Do not assume that all other such products share the same characteristics: Read this carefully http://www.hardblok.com/product-info/ |
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| Author: | Dart270 [ Mon Feb 01, 2010 10:31 am ] |
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Thanks. Would be nice to have numbers for Hard Blok, but that answers the basic question. Lou |
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| Author: | adiffrentcity [ Mon Feb 01, 2010 7:08 pm ] |
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Quote: Anybody know what is the thermal expansion coeff for block filler (block rock)?
TCOE is same as cast iron per hardblok website, I think that figure(cast iron TCOE) was posted a couple pages back by kevin? *edit* Page 4. After looking at those numbers again the Hardblok would probably be a better choice for a poured-in top deck so long as it would stay in place and hold together once there was water under it and the head bolted on above. I've seen a how-to on the epoxy/block filler top deck method for open deck honda engines. I know we aren't talking hondas here, but would you guys like for me to dig that up and post a link as "proof of concept" as far as durability given the dissimilar materials? I just prefer that idea, totally in my head(have no al block to try it), because of the much lower expense since there is a total lack of exotic machining techniques. |
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| Author: | madmax/6 [ Mon Feb 01, 2010 7:36 pm ] |
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I love my aluminum block 62 Valiant street car. If the only advantage of a race aluminum block is the weight savings, then adding block filler, steel top deck and the hassels isn't worth the 20lbs difference to wonder if its gonna work. MY OPINION...Guzzi Mark |
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| Author: | Dart270 [ Tue Feb 02, 2010 6:27 am ] |
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Ted, I'd love to see that article. Mark, Al block saves 85-90 lbs, which is more important for road racing than drags. Even with a plate added, figure 80 lbs savings. It's certainly not for everyone, I'm just sayin'... Mostly, I just wanna try. Lou |
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| Author: | Kevin Johnson [ Tue Feb 02, 2010 7:45 am ] |
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Quote: ...After looking at those numbers again the Hardblok would probably be a better choice for a poured-in top deck so long as it would stay in place and hold together once there was water under it and the head bolted on above.
I suspect this has never been tried on any engine with Hardblok. You could give them a ring. Also, I hear road racing being bantered which was my thought too. Ask the people at Hardblok how many road race engines are running it. They have been selling it for about 24 years now so I think they would have answers for both these questions. Quote: ...
A difference between the Honda engines and the slant six is that the Honda cylinders and block walls (deck) are symmetrical (nearly so) along the central axis of the engine. The slant six is not. The greater mass of material on the thrust side of the cylinder bank will push them towards the cam. The base of the bores on the cam side is "notched" like a tree to be felled. Some of my maternal relatives were Canadian lumberjacks in the latter part of the 1800s. I've seen a how-to on the epoxy/block filler top deck method for open deck honda engines. I know we aren't talking hondas here, but would you guys like for me to dig that up and post a link as "proof of concept" as far as durability given the dissimilar materials? I am channeling now...: Timber!! |
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| Author: | passing you [ Tue Feb 02, 2010 8:50 am ] |
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Well I think I'm gonna take the plunge and fill the bottom an 1 1/2 - 2'', install steel rods with washers spot welded towards the top before cure. then I'll fill the top of the block about the same, using a plate and paper. The idea is the steel rods kinda give 'sleep at night' feeling as to be a back up support for the filled deck. I ain't gonna set any records with this thing performance wise, but At least it has a better chance of staying together. Hey, at worst it comes loose, gets hot, I shut it off and I start over.... thanks guys |
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