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New Problem with Lorrie Van Haul's Oil Pressure
https://slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=54268		 Page 5 of 15
Author:  JCAllison [ Sun Jan 19, 2014 4:36 am ]
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This is a Slant Six?
Yes, a stock 225 SL6 with a 1920 Holley Economaster.
Hey Mr. AT,
Lorrie originally had a Holley 1920, but it got eaten up by the ChemDip when I tried to rebuild it. Got a very nice Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor from Slant Six Dan. It seems to be a very sturdy unit, much heavier than the Holley 1920. From what Daniel said, it was used on only one year with the Slant Six Engine. What makes it so nice is that there are no gaskets below the Fuel Level in the Float Bowl so there's little chance of it leaking.
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Valvoline may get dirty quicker because of the detergents. That means they are doing their job!
Right.
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A few posts back it was recommended to use ATF to do a flush. What do you think of THAT idea?
In your motor, maybe one quart only...better yet a quart of Rislone instead. Rislone is gentler.
You mean to use four quarts of 10W30 and only one quart of ATF or Rislone?

Am hoping to get Lorrie's Oiling System completely cleaned out. This constant messing with it has got to come to a stop. Want to do it to where Lorrie is consistently reliable and once again relatively trouble free like she was before she sat for sixteen years. That would be the best of all worlds.

Anyway, would have answered this post earlier but didn't noticed it.

Hope YOU have a GREAT Sunday.

Will let you know how the pulling of Lorrie's Oil Pan goes after the fact.

JC
Author:  JCAllison [ Sun Jan 19, 2014 8:15 am ]
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Hey All,
Sunday Morning Update:

Am just taking a break. Have five bolts removed from Lorrie's Oil Pan. It's like pulling Wisdom Teeth.

All but two of the Bolts are readily accessible. The two that are not readily accessible are the two that are on the starboard (right) side at the rear of the Oil Pan. They are bounded by the Oil Pan on their port (left) side, and a Brace that runs from the Frame to the Cover Plate of the Transmission on their starboard side.The space between the Oil Pan and the Brace is less than diameter of the Socket needed to fit the Bolt Hex Head.

That's the BAD news. The GOOD news is the Bolts holding the Brace are readily accessible and it can be taken off if the Bolts will come out. Am probably going to have to use a Breaker Bar to get them loose.

The first Bolt removed was a booger.

The rest so far have been relatively easy compared to that first one.

Anyway, things are progressing quite smoothly so far.

Had left Scorcher, the computer running while I surveyed the location of all the Bolts. Now that it is clear that the Bolts can be gotten to, will turn The Scorcher off and get back to removing the Oil Pan.

Will update as soon as it is removed.

Have a GREAT Sunday.

JC
Author:  Aggressive Ted [ Sun Jan 19, 2014 9:48 am ]
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You mean to use four quarts of 10W30 and only one quart of Rislone?
Yes!

Sounds like you had the stock 1920, not the Economaster version. I did the same thing to one.....the throat discharge tubes all vanished after sitting in the carb cleaner! I will never run one of that style again! The Holley Economaster is a great carb!and really makes a big difference when it comes to mileage. :D :D :D

Good luck on the pan.
Author:  JCAllison [ Sun Jan 19, 2014 11:07 am ]
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You mean to use four quarts of 10W30 and only one quart of Rislone?
Yes!
Hey Mr. AT,
You say that Rislone is "gentler". Is THAT what we want? Would it hurt to use ATF instead of Rislone and maybe give Lorrie some little less than gentle payback for all this grief! :) Besides, have the ATF on hand.
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Sounds like you had the stock 1920, not the Economaster version.
Probably. But I don't know the difference. If one doesn't KNOW the difference, one can't TELL the difference.
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I did the same thing to one.....the throat discharge tubes all vanished after sitting in the carb cleaner!
EXACTLY the same thing with the Holley 1920 that I tried to rebuild.
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I will never run one of that style again!
Neither will I.
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The Holley Economaster is a great carb! And really makes a big difference when it comes to mileage. :D :D :D
That's GREAT! Right now, am not worried about Lorrie's mileage. Am just concerned with getting her back up and running.
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Good luck on the pan.
See todays mid-day update, coming to a SlantSixForum near you shortly.

JC
Author:  JCAllison [ Sun Jan 19, 2014 11:38 am ]
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Hey All,
All of the Bolts have been removed from Lorrie's Oil Pan! It took from 9:30 a.m. till 12:30 p.m.

They all came out without breaking any of them.

Some were REALLY tight and had to be backed out using a Breaker Bar almost all the way.

The Bracket that goes from the Engine to the Transmission came off fairly easily. Am going to clean up that Bracket and paint it. Will clean up the Bolts so that they will go back in easily. There are two that go into the Engine and two that go into the Transmission Bell Housing.

There were only two glitches: One was a Bolt with a "rounded" off Hex Head. Fortunately there is a Metrinch Set here and so it was used and the Bolt came right out. The second glitch was the left front Bolt. Started turning it, and turned it, and turned it, and suddenly realized that it wasn't backing out!

"What the..."

Felt up behind it and it had a friggin' Nut on it.

Took a short break.
Washed my hands.
Combed the crud out of my hair.
Had a glass of cold water.
Took off the sweatshirt.

Set about trying to figure out how to get that 1/2" Nut on the Bolt to stop spinning.

Tried to put a 1/2" Wrench on it, but the Fan Belt was in the way.

Loosened the Alternator Tension Bolt. Pulled the Alternator up. Removed the Fan Belt making it possible to the Wrench onto it. Held the Wrench with one hand and the Ratchet with the other and with some amount of difficulty, finally got the Nut off and the Bolt came right on out.

So Lorrie is NOW sitting with all the Bolts out of her Oil Pan.

All that has to be done is use the big Screw Driver to pry the Oil Pan Loose from the Gasket.

It should drop right down.

Am Going to pull Lorrie's Dip Stick so that it isn't in the way.

There appears to be sufficient space between the bottom of the Oil Pan and the top of the Front Axle to be able to clear the Oil Pump Pick Up Tube. We will see.

Am not going to drop the Oil Pan just yet though because I am worn to a frazzle!

Am thinking about getting out the Craftsman RotoTool and the Wire Brush Wheels and sit in a nice chair in the sunlight and clean up all the Bolts so that they won't be so hard to put back in.

Have any of you ever done this operation? It is quite a task. Fortunately the bottom of Lorrie's Engine is completely clear of impediments and is easy to get to which is not the case with Dodge Cars and Vans.

Have been talking to Lorrie while working on her. Told her that I wouldn't do this for just "anybody". Am hoping that she will show some appreciation for all this effort and straighten up and become her old reliable self again.

Don't know what to expect to find in her Oil Pan. Grit? Sludge? Asphalt? Anyone want to guess? Will get a JPG of it if it is unusual.

Am just taking a bit of a break. My shoulders are really tired, but it has been an interesting morning.

Anyway, am hoping that all this will go back together again with no more fuss than it took to take it apart.

Will keep you all updated.

JC
Author:  Reed [ Sun Jan 19, 2014 11:48 am ]
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Glad to hear it is going well for you. You are lucky. On almost all vehicles with a slant six you have to pull the engine to pull the pan, or at least jack the engine up(which isn't easy when you are trying to remove the oil pan).

Take a break and spend some time with a wire brush cleaning those threads. If you have the desire and the fortitude, it may be a good idea to chase the threads on the bolts and in the block with a tap and die set. The torque on those bolts is very low, something like 5-10 foot pounds, so you should not have had to use a breaker bar.

I hope you don't find any nasty surprises when you get the pan dropped.
Author:  Aggressive Ted [ Sun Jan 19, 2014 12:38 pm ]
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Agreed! you are lucky not to have a fat wide cross member in the way.

Yes, on the ATF if you already have some handy.
Author:  JCAllison [ Sun Jan 19, 2014 1:38 pm ]
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Glad to hear it is going well for you.
Hey Reed,
It has all gone swimmingly.
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You are lucky. On almost all vehicles with a slant six you have to pull the engine to pull the pan, or at least jack the engine up (which isn't easy when you are trying to remove the oil pan).
That was the impression that I got from reading in the Dodge Van Manuals that are here. It involves moving the Transmission back, undoing the Motor Mounts, and it is about a six or seven paragraph instruction.
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Take a break and spend some time with a wire brush cleaning those threads.
Have already cleaned the Bolts that were dry (devoid of oil and road grime). The ones that were oily and grimy are soaking in a coffee can immersed in Xylol. Some of the Bolts were longer than they need be. Am thinking that of just replacing all the bolts with some NEW shorter ones.[/quote]
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If you have the desire and the fortitude, it may be a good idea to chase the threads on the bolts and in the block with a tap and die set.
That thought crossed my mind. Am going to do it. It's worth it to have the Threaded holes clean. Makes the Bolts go in MUCH easier. Will also put NeverSeize on them to keep them from rusting.
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The torque on those bolts is very low, something like 5-10 foot pounds, so you should not have had to use a breaker bar.
What necessitated the use of the Breaker Bar was that the long Bolts stick up out of the threaded holes and they had rusted. Put some AeroKroil on them but still they came out hard. Shorter Bolts wouldn't have so many rusted threads.
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I hope you don't find any nasty surprises when you get the pan dropped.
Well, are you ready for this? See the next post for the Mid Afternoon Update.

Hang in there.

JC
Author:  JCAllison [ Sun Jan 19, 2014 1:58 pm ]
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Hey All,
Sunday Mid Afternoon Update:

Pried Lorrie's Oil Pan loose from the Gaskets. It came off easily, and there in the bottom of this HUGE Oil Pan in the deepest part of it there was about 1/16" of black carbon soot!

That's it! There was hardly anything in the Oil Pan. No grit! No Sludge! No Asphalt! No slimy green gunk! Nothing. Just a 1/16th of an inch of soft black stuff. It's really soft. Like oil soaked soot.

The Oil Pump Pick Up Tube is clean and the screen is not clogged.The Crank and the Rod Bearing Caps are all perfectly clean. No build up of any kind. There is no sludge apparent anywhere.

So now am at a total loss to tell WHERE the Oil Pressure went.

Am convinced now that pulling this Oil Pan was completely unnecessary!

The only things that it accomplished was to set my mind at ease and provide me with the experience of having done it.

Am really tired. Will sleep well tonight.

Am hoping that it is that it will prove to be that the OLD Oil Pump just wore out and was not putting up more than 40 PSI. We'll find out if that is the case when we next start Lorrie with the NEW Oil Pump installed.

If the Oil Passages were clogged, that would not drop the Oil Pressure, would it? If anything, it would raise the Oil Pressure, wouldn't it?

If the Pump was putting up 55 PSI, wouldn't the Oil Pressure Gauge see it? The Oil Pressure Gauge is directly connected to the Pressure Chamber in the Oil Pump.

What WOULD lower the Oil Pressure would be If the tolerances in the Rod and Crank Bearings was excessive, but there doesn't appear, nor does the Engine sound like it has loose Bearings.

Again, am at a total loss to say where the Oil Pressure went.

Am going wipe down the Oil Pump Pick Up Tube, Crank Weights and Rod Caps.

Am going to scrape and clean the Gasket Flange in preparation for the re-installation of the Oil Pan.

Am going to clean the Oil Pan inside and out and repaint it with whatever color rattle can that is here. Think there is some Gold, some Blue and some Black. Will use whatever there is the most of.

Am going to clean and repaint the Bracket that goes from the Engine to the Transmission.

So now, am going to have to wait for the Gasket Set to arrive. It is supposed to be here next Wednesday.

When it gets here, will install it and re-install the Oil Pan.

In the meantime will install the NEW Oil Pump and re-install the Frantz Oil Cleaner System with the NEW Hydraulic Hoses which am going to have shortened to the proper length tomorrow.

When Lorrie is all back together, will then do an ATF and Motor Oil Flush.

Will then drain the Oil, and take out the used Filter Element.

Will then install a NEW Filter element and put in five quarts of NEW Valvoline 10W30 Oil and see what kind of response in Oil Pressure we get from THAT.

Am REALLY, REALLY hoping that the drop in Oil Pressure was from the OLD Oil Pump wearing out, but to be perfectly candid, the OLD Oil Pump doesn't appear to be worn out. Still what do I know about such things?

Will just have to wait and see.
What will be will be.
Time will tell.
Be well.
JC
Author:  JCAllison [ Sun Jan 19, 2014 3:18 pm ]
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Hey All,
Went out and got under Lorrie's Engine with the Oil Pan removed and was wiping the oil film off of the Crank Shaft Counter Weights and the Rod Caps. The Rotating Assembly looks nice and clean. There doesn't seem to be any up or down slop in the Connecting Rod Bearings BUT they will move about 1/64th of an inch forward and back. Is THAT alright? All six of the Rod Caps move about the same amount.

Wiped off the Oil Pump Pick Up Tube. It is nice and clean.

Am really pleased with how clean everything is.

Can see the Distributor Gear and the Cam Shaft.

Can also see the Timing Chain. It isn't taught. Should it be? It will move about up about 1/4" if one pushes on it.

Anyway, am going to install the NEW Oil Pump tomorrow.

Will update when something gets done.

Have a good night all.

JC
Author:  Reed [ Sun Jan 19, 2014 4:01 pm ]
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Can also see the Timing Chain. It isn't taught. Should it be? It will move about up about 1/4" if one pushes on it.
Ouch. It should be very taught. As in almost no deflection. 1/4 inch slop in the chain is about the outside limit of being serviceable.
Author:  JCAllison [ Sun Jan 19, 2014 6:31 pm ]
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Ouch. It should be very taught. As in almost no deflection. 1/4 inch slop in the chain is about the outside limit of being serviceable.
Hey Reed,
Well, you see? There you go.

Lorrie runs good when she's up and running.

Am going to have to tend to Lorrie's Timing Chain next.

Fortunately, to get to the Timing Chain is no big deal: Remove the Grill which is really easy; Remove the Radiator Which is really easy; Remove the Fan which is really easy; Remove the Water Pump which is really easy; Remove the Timing Chain Cover which is really easy; And THERE is the Timing Chain. All right at hand level.

It's something NEW to worry about.

Sometime I wonder if it is all worth it. But what am I to do?

Went to bed at 6:30 p.m. and am just so tired from what was done today, that sleep just wouldn't happen.

Got up at about 7:45 p.m. and shaved around my beard, took a long, hot shower, got all cleaned up, put on deodorant, shaving lotion, all clean clothes and hopefully now sleep will come.

Am going to launder all the clothes that got mucky from the weeks activity. Will put them in the dryer tomorrow morning.

Reed, this is no way for an almost seventy-five year old sick cripple to exist, BUT while it might not always be pleasant, it's NEVER uninteresting. :)

Have a good night, sleep tight, don't let the bed bug you. :)

JC
Author:  Joshie225 [ Sun Jan 19, 2014 6:52 pm ]
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1/4" slack in the timing chain isn't much. The engine will run fine with much worse timing chain slop than you have. With the number of miles you put on the thing I wouldn't change anything unless it was in obvious distress.
Author:  SlantSteve [ Sun Jan 19, 2014 6:56 pm ]
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I guess this is where personal opinion comes in...IF it was a new chain,which yours isn't I'd expect less slack,on a 25000 mile engine I'd be happy enough,the chain probably wears fairly rapidly until it beds in all its components,then the wear decreases,in other words,what you see after 25000 miles may not be much worse at 50000 miles....I've seen chains (I'm sure many others have too) that are so worn they skip a tooth,it takes a lot more than 1/4" slack to do that. What you need to do is rotate the engine in its normal direction of rotation until the chain is taught on the drive side and then check the slack,if its 1/4" I'd be happy, its gonna last you a long time. I'd be more interested in taking a peek under the valve cover to confirm good lubrication is making it up there. Regarding the chain,well,that's just my opinion,I wouldn't really be concerned,its your call of course,if you want it as new,sure change it,if you want it running ,button it up. As a confidence check,when you checked timing with a timing light,were the indications steady? Yes? Then the chain is doing its job and not allowing the cam and distributor to whip about and cause erratic timing. Remember however IF the new pump is a high volume pump it will place more load on the drive gear AND the chan,will it stretch more? I don't know,I don't use high vol pumps in any street engine, build it right you don't need it.
Author:  Reed [ Sun Jan 19, 2014 7:11 pm ]
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I guess I am just a tight ass about timing components. If I can move the chain much with my finger, I replace it. However, I have had engines that were running fine and I didn't know the timing chain had more than 1/4 inch play until I opened up the engine. I revise my recommendation- bolt it all back to gather and be happy.
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