Slant Six Forum :: aluminum slant six head from 1959?

I know you at one time claimed you were going to do a Slant head. I think I also remember why it didn't happen. IIRC, it was lack of serious interest in an alloy head, right?

I fully agree it's a money loser...but then how do you explain the millions of different heads on the market for Small Block Chevy's? OK, well, let's assume there are a million buyers. But then there are tons of Mopar heads, too, and there aren't tons of buyers for those. And if a bare casting is $600, how can companies routinely sell two heads finished for $1200?

I mean...I can see there being one or two BB Mopar heads. I can well remember when the ONLY head was the mostly useless B-1. And the Zeeker head that was even more elusive. Now, there are a ton of different heads....so there can't be that many sold of each variety.

Somehow, companies find a way to satisfy a market. I'm not sure if they do that my losing money or magic or....?

But for the Slant Six, I think an AL head is a long way off. My guess is 50 could be sold in a reasonable amount of time at under $2K each.

Oh, I know. People say they want something until it's time to crack open the checkbook. With the Slant Six, I don't see the money being spent like it is on V8's.

Quote:

Oh, I know. People say they want something until it's time to crack open the checkbook. With the Slant Six, I don't see the money being spent like it is on V8's.

A few years ago Ardun heads were built for the flathead Ford 8, I think the sets were $14,000. I believe they sold a few sets, http://www.ardun.com/ I can't imagine that there is a big market for these on an 80 year old engine design. But you can buy one if you can afford it. Did they break even ? I don't think the world is a better place because new Ardun heads are available. Some buy boats, some gamble at Vegas, others buy rapidly depreciating luxury cars, others don't think $14K is a lot to spend on a hobby car that a grandson will inherit.

Author:	CNC-Dude [ Sat Mar 02, 2019 2:48 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: aluminum slant six head from 1959?
Quote: I know you at one time claimed you were going to do a Slant head. I think I also remember why it didn't happen. IIRC, it was lack of serious interest in an alloy head, right? Yes.

Author:	wvenable [ Sat Mar 02, 2019 6:21 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: aluminum slant six head from 1959?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9434BoGkNQ

Author:	Tim Keith [ Sat Mar 02, 2019 9:14 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: aluminum slant six head from 1959?
I have more respect for the Wright Brothers because their shop also built the motor. Often, older men are involved such as these gentleman. 50 years of experience. I didn't see any software used in this video. The Wright Brothers probably didn't even use a slide rule. "We didn’t make any drawings. One of us would sketch out the part we were talking about on a piece of scratch paper, and I’d spike the sketch over my bench. It took me six weeks to make that engine. The only metal-working machines we had were a lathe and a drill press, run by belts from the stationary gas engine. http://www.wright-brothers.org/Informat ... Engine.htm Casting the Wright Brothers Model B Crankcase https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kcUJeg4Ifk ( the slant six could also benefit from a new block ).

Author:	CNC-Dude [ Sun Mar 03, 2019 5:05 am ]
Post subject:	Re: aluminum slant six head from 1959?
Quote: I know you at one time claimed you were going to do a Slant head. I think I also remember why it didn't happen. IIRC, it was lack of serious interest in an alloy head, right? To be more accurate Dennis, I never claimed I was going to make one. I offered to contribute my services and abilities in making one if the interest and loyalty to support the brand was there. As it turned out, neither was. I mentioned this regarding another project I was working on 3-4 years ago, "the enthusiasm to development cost ratio is too low to bring it fruition at this time". Maybe at some point in the future, the enthusiasm will catch up to the cost to make it happen.

Author:	Tim Keith [ Sun Mar 03, 2019 3:20 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: aluminum slant six head from 1959?
We could go to China - just kidding When I needed a cylinder head for my Kubota and I found sites in China selling them for $100 each in lots of 10. You see these on Ebay listed at $500 and up. But before the Asian heads, vendors were asking $1,500 and up for used heads. I've heard that when Kubota stopping supporting older models they sold the tooling to Chinese companies. I don't know if that's true, but the Chinese heads appear to be the same - or they are just good at copying. Chrysler 2.2/2.5 heads from China are made from tooling that Chrysler sold. Once I queried a Chinese site for a crankshaft and I got a response that they could make them for $100 each if I provided specs.

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Author:	slantzilla [ Sun Mar 03, 2019 4:51 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: aluminum slant six head from 1959?
The Chinese will make stuff as cheap or expensive as you want. Cheap ain't good, and good ain't cheap. I have a buddy who is involved in casting Hemi and B/RB blocks. I will try to get him interested in an alloy Slant head, but I know it's been a huge undertaking getting blocks cast, and then finding machine shops to do all the finish work. IIRC, he told me once he was over $200k out of pocket and had yet to get one good block to sell.

Author:	CNC-Dude [ Sun Mar 03, 2019 5:22 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: aluminum slant six head from 1959?
It will be a solid $50K-$60K just to get patterns made ready to make the first head casting. Then you'll make several single castings for destructive testing and proofing out the patterns. Then most foundries want a 25-30 piece minimum for orders at approx. $600 for each raw casting(another $15K-$18K). Then you have to buy parts(seats and guides and misc. for 25-30 sets of heads). So you will end up with around $1200 bucks per head machined, but bare. If you sell them at a modest profit of 25 percent, which is only $1600, you're only clearing $400 or less per head. So when you sell all your first batch of heads, you still are $6K short of getting the next batch cast. You will never reach the break even point before everyone one that wants one has one, then no more demand. You will also never get reimbursed for your initial $50K-$60K investment. So its really a lose-lose situation!

Author:	GregCon [ Sun Mar 03, 2019 5:38 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: aluminum slant six head from 1959?
I fully agree it's a money loser...but then how do you explain the millions of different heads on the market for Small Block Chevy's? OK, well, let's assume there are a million buyers. But then there are tons of Mopar heads, too, and there aren't tons of buyers for those. And if a bare casting is $600, how can companies routinely sell two heads finished for $1200? I mean...I can see there being one or two BB Mopar heads. I can well remember when the ONLY head was the mostly useless B-1. And the Zeeker head that was even more elusive. Now, there are a ton of different heads....so there can't be that many sold of each variety. Somehow, companies find a way to satisfy a market. I'm not sure if they do that my losing money or magic or....? But for the Slant Six, I think an AL head is a long way off. My guess is 50 could be sold in a reasonable amount of time at under $2K each.

Author:	CNC-Dude [ Sun Mar 03, 2019 6:20 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: aluminum slant six head from 1959?
Quote: I fully agree it's a money loser...but then how do you explain the millions of different heads on the market for Small Block Chevy's? OK, well, let's assume there are a million buyers. But then there are tons of Mopar heads, too, and there aren't tons of buyers for those. And if a bare casting is $600, how can companies routinely sell two heads finished for $1200? I mean...I can see there being one or two BB Mopar heads. I can well remember when the ONLY head was the mostly useless B-1. And the Zeeker head that was even more elusive. Now, there are a ton of different heads....so there can't be that many sold of each variety. Somehow, companies find a way to satisfy a market. I'm not sure if they do that my losing money or magic or....? But for the Slant Six, I think an AL head is a long way off. My guess is 50 could be sold in a reasonable amount of time at under $2K each. Easy, they are selling thousands of sets of them because it's a much better market. I doubt you'd sell more than 100 Slant heads in your lifetime because it is such a small niche with very little demand. As slantzilla pointed out when I went to a room full of die-hard racers and enthusiasts there was no real interest, even though on the forum people are gung ho, but face to face not so much.

Author:	GregCon [ Sun Mar 03, 2019 7:01 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: aluminum slant six head from 1959?
Oh, I know. People say they want something until it's time to crack open the checkbook. With the Slant Six, I don't see the money being spent like it is on V8's.

Author:	Tim Keith [ Sun Mar 03, 2019 9:58 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: aluminum slant six head from 1959?
Quote: Oh, I know. People say they want something until it's time to crack open the checkbook. With the Slant Six, I don't see the money being spent like it is on V8's. A few years ago Ardun heads were built for the flathead Ford 8, I think the sets were $14,000. I believe they sold a few sets, http://www.ardun.com/ I can't imagine that there is a big market for these on an 80 year old engine design. But you can buy one if you can afford it. Did they break even ? I don't think the world is a better place because new Ardun heads are available. Some buy boats, some gamble at Vegas, others buy rapidly depreciating luxury cars, others don't think $14K is a lot to spend on a hobby car that a grandson will inherit.

Author:	emsvitil [ Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:20 am ]
Post subject:	Re: aluminum slant six head from 1959?
Not knowing the costs involved, my gut feeling is that you'd need to machine/CNC a modular head to cut down costs. With the individual pieces being easier to machine with limited equipment, then bolt the pieces together. The pieces could then be customized to what somebody wants (mild to wild) And I could be totally wrong...…………

Author:	jcc [ Mon Mar 04, 2019 6:49 am ]
Post subject:	Re: aluminum slant six head from 1959?
I have two requirements, and am flexible in most other areas, 1. It be alum and lighter, 2. it be better performing then stock ( I leave to definition of "better" here undefined). That being said, what compromise/advantages would there be in a CNC Slant 6 head? I just assumed it would be strictly short cycle/drag race solution, and not for me. So is CNC something realistically one of the options? Seems with CNC, quantity is a plus, I've read here about somebody doing a one off years back. And a bolt on $1600 alum head would be awesome IMO.

Author:	CNC-Dude [ Mon Mar 04, 2019 6:55 am ]
Post subject:	Re: aluminum slant six head from 1959?
I just got my new shop finished and have been buying equipment again for some time. I'm now able to streamline a lot of things better than before, and I've been wanting to make a billet head for awhile. This might be a good starting point to work out some particulars once I get a 3D model created.

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Author:	drgonzo [ Mon Mar 04, 2019 6:58 am ]
Post subject:	Re: aluminum slant six head from 1959?
Quote: Quote: Oh, I know. People say they want something until it's time to crack open the checkbook. With the Slant Six, I don't see the money being spent like it is on V8's. A few years ago Ardun heads were built for the flathead Ford 8, I think the sets were $14,000. I believe they sold a few sets, http://www.ardun.com/ I can't imagine that there is a big market for these on an 80 year old engine design. But you can buy one if you can afford it. Did they break even ? I don't think the world is a better place because new Ardun heads are available. Some buy boats, some gamble at Vegas, others buy rapidly depreciating luxury cars, others don't think $14K is a lot to spend on a hobby car that a grandson will inherit. People that buy Ardun hemi head conversions are the same people that buy Ferrari 250 GTOs.