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First Attempt to Start Help Needed
https://slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32868		 Page 7 of 8
Author:  Aggressive Ted [ Mon Apr 06, 2009 7:27 am ]
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Quote:
I just tested plugs wires 1, 2, and 3 with a sparkplug tester. I pulled the wire off the plug, plugged the sparkplug terminal into the plug wire, adjusted the gap on the tester and grounded the ground wire as the instructions stated. I ran a jumper from the + battery to the + coil terminal. Prior to cranking, I had 11.4 volts at the coil + terminal. I tried three attempts to crank the car, yet there was no spark on the sparkplug tester. WHY?
Good voltage at the coil.
How old are your spark plug wires?
How many ohms do you read on the distributor pick up?
It should be around 300 ohms or more.
If not, then maybe dead and not triggering the coil.
Author:  74DartSport [ Mon Apr 06, 2009 10:08 am ]
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Quote:
Good voltage at the coil.
How old are your spark plug wires?
How many ohms do you read on the distributor pick up?
It should be around 300 ohms or more.
If not, then maybe dead and not triggering the coil.
The spark plug wires were put on the car in 1989 about eight months prior to the car going into storage from June 1990 until July 2005 when the restoration began. I will post pictures of my current wires later. I want to buy new plug wires like the current wires. Cannot find them.

How do you test for 300 ohms? (Key in run, etc.?)
Author:  74DartSport [ Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:29 pm ]
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Quote:
How many ohms do you read on the distributor pick up?
It should be around 300 ohms or more.
If not, then maybe dead and not triggering the coil.
How do you test for 300 ohms?
Author:  74DartSport [ Sat Apr 11, 2009 1:08 pm ]
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Quote:
Good voltage at the coil.
How old are your spark plug wires?
How many ohms do you read on the distributor pick up?
It should be around 300 ohms or more.
If not, then maybe dead and not triggering the coil.
I pulled the distributor from the block and tested the two pickup wires using a multimeter set on 2000 ohms. My reading was 455. This is more than the 300 you suggested. Does this mean the distributor is good?

Is there another test to verify the distributor is good? The nylon gear bushings on the dizzy that go into the block are in great condition.
Author:  74DartSport [ Sat Apr 11, 2009 1:21 pm ]
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In either case, if the underhood was painted, it defenitely sounds like the grounding situation could use a check. The ground strap that bolts to the head and goes to the firewall is definitely an important part. I ground my EI units and voltage regulators there when they are in the vicinity. Otherwise, an extra strap to the inner fender, or battery will do.

The pickup is tested easily. Grab your multimeter, disconnect the plug from the dizzy (should have a white and a brown wire on it), remove dizzy, then place each lead into the plug. Set your multimeter to 2000 Ohms.
Did just this and the reading was 455.
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Rotate the dizzy to where one of the star points (there are 6) so that none are pointed toward the magnetic pickup where the white/brown wires lead. Note resistance measurement. It should be a minimum of 300, but a higher number (up to 450 or so) will still work.

Then rotate the dizzy so that one of the star points is lined up directly with the tip of the pickup coming out of the magnet (the black block). Note resistance there as well. The resistance should drop a significant amount (down to less than 100 ohms for sure). If they are close to within these ranges, you CAN but probably don't NEED to adjust the pickup..
I could not get this to measure down. It stayed at 450 range. Is this a problem with the dizzy?
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If the measurements are off, or if you want to set it anyways just to be sure, here is how you do it:

1. Get a Feeler Gauge set (can be found at any auto parts store)
2. Rotate the gauges until you come to the one that is .008".
3. Rotate the dizzy until a star point is lined up with the point on the magnet block.
4. Insert feeler gauge between the two points. If the feeler has some resistance to passing through the two points, they are probably ok. If it is too tight, loosen the flat-head screw and move the magnet away from the star point until the feeler gauge will pass through with little resistance. If it is too loose, then do the opposite, and move the magnet closer to the star point.
My son did this once and now I think I need to do it again. IS IT A PROBLEM TO USE A STEEL FEELER GAUGE? I've heard it will ruin the dizzy magnet.
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Voila!

Then always spin the dizzy and make sure that none of the star points hit the magnet. If you really want to be thorough, check all of the star points against the magnet. You will want to set the gap with the feeler gauge to the one that is closest to the pickup to start with.

One small tip:

When you have found the star point you are going to use for adjustment, set it perfectly aligned with the point on the magnet, and then use a piece of Duct tape (or similar, electrical tape works too), and wrap it around the gear at the bottom, and the base of the dizzy body, this will keep the shaft from rotating during check/adjustment. Believe me, its a bit of a pain to do with 2 hands and no tape.

Let us know what your readings are!

~THOR~
Author:  74DartSport [ Sun Apr 12, 2009 11:31 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Quote:
If the measurements are off, or if you want to set it anyways just to be sure, here is how you do it:

1. Get a Feeler Gauge set (can be found at any auto parts store)
2. Rotate the gauges until you come to the one that is .008".
3. Rotate the dizzy until a star point is lined up with the point on the magnet block.
4. Insert feeler gauge between the two points. If the feeler has some resistance to passing through the two points, they are probably ok. If it is too tight, loosen the flat-head screw and move the magnet away from the star point until the feeler gauge will pass through with little resistance. If it is too loose, then do the opposite, and move the magnet closer to the star point.
My son did this once and now I think I need to do it again. IS IT A PROBLEM TO USE A STEEL FEELER GAUGE? I've heard it will ruin the dizzy magnet.
Quote:
Voila!

Then always spin the dizzy and make sure that none of the star points hit the magnet. If you really want to be thorough, check all of the star points against the magnet. You will want to set the gap with the feeler gauge to the one that is closest to the pickup to start with.
After testing the resistance on the pickup wires to be 455, I read my FSM on how to check measurements on the distributor. Just as Thor instructed above, I manually spun the rotor and noticed the star points on the reluctor were just barely touching the "point" on the pick-up coil assembly. Using a flat head screwdriver, I loosened the screw holding the pick-up assembly and reset the gap to .008.

I reinstalled the distributor, plugged in the pick-up coil wires, rechecked for a good connection of all six plug wires in the dizzy cap and the high tension center wire, plugged all six wires back to the correct sparkplugs and center of coil. I sprayed a little starter fluid down the carb and began cranking. Only 6.7 volts at + coil terminal in run. It did not fire up.

What else can I do?
Author:  Aggressive Ted [ Sun Apr 12, 2009 12:39 pm ]
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Glad you finally got voltage at the coil. Look at the plugs. Are they wet and fouled? or dry as bone? You may need to install some new plugs if they are black and fouled from all the cranking.
The next thing to do is verify the timing is correct and make sure your getting a good squirt out of the accelerator pump. Once you have the correct timing, fuel and spark, it will fire right up given the valves are sealing.

Anything over 300 ohms is good. When it reads zero then the pick up needs replacing.
Author:  74DartSport [ Sun Apr 12, 2009 2:27 pm ]
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Quote:
Glad you finally got voltage at the coil. Look at the plugs. Are they wet and fouled? or dry as bone? You may need to install some new plugs if they are black and fouled from all the cranking.
The next thing to do is verify the timing is correct and make sure your getting a good squirt out of the accelerator pump. Once you have the correct timing, fuel and spark, it will fire right up given the valves are sealing.

Anything over 300 ohms is good. When it reads zero then the pick up needs replacing.
Thanks Ted. I was beginning to think the forum members had given up trying to help.

I just pulled all six sparkplugs. 2 through 6 were damp but not what I would call wet. I wiped them down and put them back in. Remember they are all new and have never run.

Sparkplug #1 was wetter than the other five. I dried it off and left it out hoping for the fuel in #1 cylinder to evaporate. I tried to put my big finger into the threaded portion of the block where the plug screws in. I did not find a lot of "wet" in there, so I took a shop towel, rolled it up, and stuck it into the cylinder. Towel was not "wet" upon removal.

You say I should verify the timing is correct and make sure I'm getting a good squirt out of the accelerator pump. I have a good squirt as I look down the throat of the carb. TIMING IS CORRECT. PLEASE ELABORATE.

Do you think the dizzy is okay and my problem is elsewhere?

Shouldn't I have more than 6 volts at the coil in run?

I have a new Bluestreak ECU and ballast coming tomorrow.

Thanks again for everyone's past and continuing assistance.
Author:  Aggressive Ted [ Sun Apr 12, 2009 6:42 pm ]
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Quote:
IF THE TIMING IS CORRECT. PLEASE ELABORATE.
If the 74 engine is still stock, there will be allot of pollution control equipment on it. The stock timing per the book says zero degrees at the damper. You can spin it over with the plugs out and check it with a timing light.

I have a 74 that I rebuilt two years ago, so I pulled of all the smog stuff do to the laws were I live. So it is tuned like a basic 63 to 68 motor. I believe they list 5 degrees BTDC.
Example: I have recurved my distributor with stiffer springs and run 16 degrees initial. But that is another topic, we need to get yours running first.

On the compression check......what kind of numbers did you see? That will tell us if the rings and valves are sealing. Check them dry and then, be sure to squirt some oil in the cylinder to check them wet. Hopefully the rings aren't stuck and the valves aren't hanging open. If all is well, over 120 lbs on each, it should have enough compression to run.

6 volts at the coil is enough to get it running. Mine used to idle a 4 volts.....however, I am at 10 volts now after rewiring going to the .85 ohm MSD resistor.

As long as the wires in the cap are in there correct location and you haven't forgotten to put the rotor back in the cap, yes it should be fine. The pick up at 400 plus ohms is fine.

You should be getting good spark at the plug. Did you try using a spark plug testor? or trying spinning it over grounding the plug to the block to visually check for the color of spark.

Charge up that battery! :D
Author:  74DartSport [ Sun Apr 12, 2009 8:32 pm ]
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I took the distributor out and plugged the pickup coil back in, spun the rotor by hand with the ignition switch in the RUN position. With the #1 spark plug taken out and back in the #1 sparkplug wire, I grounded the plug, key in RUN, and with a helper spinning the rotor as fast as he could, I still did not get a spark on the sparkplug. I did hear clicking as the rotor was being spun. What was the clicking noise?

So I made a phone call and ordered a new pickup coil wire for $19. It arrives in two days. A rebuilt distributor is $52.

Tomorrow my new Bluestreak ECU and ballast come in. (Remember my current ECU and ballast are new.) I am not convinced the ECU or ballast is the problem.

My starter is original and has not been rebuilt. Could a short in the starter be the cause of my problem? I charge the battery after every cranking. I got no spark with my spark checker. The engine is a 73 slant. My 74 did not come with pollution control crap on it, unless you mean the EGR.

Thanks for your suggestions. Your assistance will help me find my problem. I am out of ideas.

If no start by Wednesday night, Thursday morning I tow the car to the shop.
Author:  Aggressive Ted [ Sun Apr 12, 2009 10:03 pm ]
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The clicking noise was hopefully the spark jumping from the rotor to the cap. It's odd that the spark wasn't coming down the wire to the plug.

With all the work you have done it should run.

What is the compression like? Dry and Wet?
Author:  Reed [ Sun Apr 12, 2009 10:40 pm ]
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I have a suggestion-

try wiring up an HEI ignition system using the current coil (+) as the trigger for a relay which powers the HEI module and the coil. This would bypass the factory wiring completely and ensure that you get 12volts at the coil and are using a good ignition system. If the motor starts up and runs, you have a short or a faulty component somewhere in the factory ignition, but it won't matter since you can abandon it.
Author:  74DartSport [ Fri Apr 17, 2009 10:15 pm ]
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I just changed the pick up coil assembly in my distributor, and reset the gap to .008 using a brass feeler gauge. Holding the distributor in my hand with the pickup wires reattached, I put the key in the RUN position and spun the distributor rotor. As it spun, I reached down to the + coil terminal and got a good shock. I won't be doing that again. My multimeter said 6.7 volts at the + coil in run (not spinning rotor).

My inline spark checker still showed no spark to the #1 plug.

Later I reinstalled the distributor, pulled the high tension lead off the center tower of the distributor, and grounded it on the engine block as someone turned the key to START (cranking it). This was done completely in the dark while I looked for sparks coming out of the high tension lead. I GOT ONE SINGLE SPARK DURING THE SEVERAL SECONDS THE STARTER WAS SPINNING. WHY?????? I did this several times and each time cranking only one single spark.

The voltage at this lead while cranking was less than 6 volts.

Is my high tension coil and possibly the sparkplug wires bad?
Could the original rotor not be touching the top of my new dizzy cap?
Author:  Reed [ Fri Apr 17, 2009 10:30 pm ]
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I don't remember if this has been covered yet, but have you checked to make sure the distributor gear is good? Does the rotor actually turn when the motor cranks over?
Author:  THOR [ Fri Apr 17, 2009 11:07 pm ]
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Yea, he said the gear is in great shape. This is a very similar problem to what we are experiencing with SL6bobs Valiant.

If your pickup in the distributor is not oscillating between 100 or so and the 455 that you measured, the dizzy is not telling the ECU to fire the coil because there has to be a difference in resistance before the ECU recognizes the signal. That first spark you get occurs with the electronic units when you first turn the car on, I have noted this same characteristic on various other vehicles.

This could all be easily solved with the usage of a DSO (Digital Storage Oscilloscope). Stay away from reman units of any kind. Distributors are known for having wierd springs and vacuum pods installed, not to mention shaft bushing issues (at least in my experience).

Here is something you can do to at least make sure the mechanical portion of the engine is good.

1. Get yourself a points dizzy

2. Verify approximately .016" gap on points when opened.

3. Install points dizzy.

4. Disconnect ECU from coil negative (-) and install wire from points dizzy to that terminal.

5. Crank the engine and verify spark.

If your wires, plugs, cap and rotor are good, then this setup should get the car started. Then we can start more involved testing of your components.

I have a feeling that the key here is going to be the distributor. With a steady reading of 455, the car will not fire.

If you would rather, get another EI dizzy from somewhere and do the same resistance check. You will then be able to see exactly what the difference should look like. Any EI dizzy will do, even a V8 one. Just simply for the experience of what the resistance drops should look like.

~THOR~
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