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C-body Tie Rod on Early A-bodies?
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Author:  slantvaliant [ Wed Mar 16, 2005 5:15 pm ]
Post subject:  C-body Tie Rod on Early A-bodies?
Will the C-body tie rods work on a '64 Valiant getting the '73-up disk brakes? I'm using the original '64 steering parts from the steering wheel down to but not including the first (inner) tie rod ends. The lower ball joints (new) and spindles will be '74 Duster.
IIRC, Lou (Dart270) used mid-70's C body tie rod (ES355L, R, and S) and sleeves on his '64 Dart. But in shopping, I noticed that Moog has different tie rod ends listed for the '62-69 (ES319L and R) and the '70 and up A-bodies (ES401L and R). Both use the ES319 sleeve. What's the difference?
I'm hoping that I can just use the stouter C parts. Possibly better steering, and the early A parts cost more!
Maybe I've just been looking at too many part numbers ...
Author:  killin5 [ Thu Mar 17, 2005 7:37 am ]
Post subject: 
In Tom Condran's book "Performance Handling for Classic Mopars" he recommends to get the tie rod adjusters from a 74-78 C-Body car and use the Moog ES355L and ES355R tie rod ends. (in the book he lists a part number for the right one as ES352R in text. In his parts list table it is ES355R. Typo)

He also lists the Tie rod sleeve as part number ES355S.

Summit Racing does not have the tie rod ends.

This is suggested to reduce flex in these parts.
Author:  relic-lover [ Thu Mar 17, 2005 9:38 am ]
Post subject:  The C-body parts should work
Funny how moog 401 series fit 70-76 - but trw 401 series fit 68-76

Based on the TRW parts application fitting 68-76 the larger C-Body
parts should fit - Note the threaded part of these parts is larger dia
so inner, outer tie rod ends, and the sleeve need to be replaced as a
set. Also specify the larger diameter thread size when you order
(11/16 inch dia). so you get the bigger parts.

I was able to get the larger sleeves and tie rod ends from rareparts in
Stockton - Note the sleeve in their online catalog had an incorrect PN
listed - May want to call them if you order the sleeve. Use 78 Dodge
Diplomat Medallion L6 with 11/16 dia as an application.

These parts work with the 70 K and H discs and 1965 steering gear
for certain - that is the setup I installed them on. Should also fit
your 74 disc setup.
Author:  SlantSixDan [ Thu Mar 17, 2005 10:33 am ]
Post subject: 
Whichever parts you wind up with, try to avoid Moog. They are a Federal-Mogul brand. FM is in very serious financial distress
and has been for awhile now. They long ago began taking money out of
"product" (as the MBAs refer to everything). Much of their stuff is now
sourced out of China and similar countries.
Author:  Charrlie_S [ Fri Mar 18, 2005 6:35 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Whichever parts you wind up with, try to avoid Moog. They are a Federal-Mogul brand. FM is in very serious financial distress
and has been for awhile now. They long ago began taking money out of
"product" (as the MBAs refer to everything). Much of their stuff is now
sourced out of China and similar countries.
The problem with avoiding F-M branded products, is you eliminate 75 % of the available parts. F-M bought up so many companies some years back.
I think all manufactures are "taking money out of the product"
Author:  SlantSixDan [ Fri Mar 18, 2005 11:30 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
The problem with avoiding F-M branded products, is you eliminate 75 % of the available parts.
H'mm. I disagree:

FM owns Sealed Power and Moog...so use TRW or Perfect Circle.
FM owns Champion, so use Autolite or NGK.
FM owns Wagner, so use Sylvania, GE or Narva (bulbs), Bendix or Raybestos or United (brakes).
FM owns Fel-Pro, so far they haven't messed with it much, but if they do, there's always Victor-Reinz and ROL.
F-M owns Anco, still a good product, but if not there's always Trico.
F-M owns Precision, no problem, there's Neapco and Spicer.
Author:  killin5 [ Fri Mar 18, 2005 1:35 pm ]
Post subject: 
So if you are not using the Moog parts (ES355L, R, and S), what part numbers do you ask for to get the tie rod ends and sleeves from TRW?

I am assuming that this upgrade is using the standard C Body parts and that there is nothing about the Moog parts, design wise, that would make them superior (like the Moog offset upper control arm bushings).

John
Author:  slantvaliant [ Fri Mar 18, 2005 2:22 pm ]
Post subject: 
I mentioned the Moog numbers because I had those numbers at hand and because they show some sort of difference between my car and some later A-bodies in the area of the tie rods.
Remember the ad showing the fat guy in a Speedo swimsuit? "Just because it fits doesn't make it right!" I want to get parts that will fit, work well, and last. If they improve the car, so much the better!
Standard C-body parts are listed from several sources. I don't recall Moog claiming to have improved the design of the tie rod ends.
Some of the suspension companies offer an 11/16 tie rod kit, with a "heavy duty" sleeve in steel or aluminum, but they don't specify the brand of the tie rod ends.
Author:  killin5 [ Thu Apr 14, 2005 11:56 am ]
Post subject:  Purpose of this Upgrade
It is my understanding that the reason it is better to upgrade to the C Body tie rod ends is that the sleeves are stronger and don't flex like the A Body ones do.

So if you bought one of these aftermarket tie rod sleeve sets, would you be getting the same benefit if you bought one for use with the A Body tie rod ends?

I may be missing something in the theory here.

John
Author:  slantvaliant [ Thu Apr 14, 2005 2:02 pm ]
Post subject: 
The C-body tie rod ends and the sleeve are larger in diameter, which should be better overall. There are aluminum and steel machined sleeves and sets available in 11/16" diameter. Those should be pretty good but more expensive than stock. I'm just trying to upgrade a bit where I can without breaking the bank.
Author:  Oldsarge [ Fri Apr 15, 2005 1:42 pm ]
Post subject: 
I'm in the middle of doing this exact swap on my '64 Dart. I got everything I needed from www.rockauto.com Everything was in stock and they were really helpful. I thought their prices were really good too.
Author:  Dart270 [ Fri Apr 15, 2005 1:51 pm ]
Post subject: 
I have the C-body ties on my '64 Dart. Worked great and no hassles.

Lou
Author:  slantzilla [ Fri Apr 15, 2005 2:22 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
FM owns Sealed Power and Moog...so use TRW or Perfect Circle.
IIRC, F-M bought TRW a couple years ago and gutted most of the line.
Quote:
F-M owns Precision, no problem, there's Neapco and Spicer.
Neapco is junk too. :shock:

We used to have a board member here who worked for F-M. He was nice enough to let us know when product was being closed out so we could get last chance. :D
Author:  Oldsarge [ Sat Apr 16, 2005 1:04 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Quote:
Whichever parts you wind up with, try to avoid Moog. They are a Federal-Mogul brand. FM is in very serious financial distress
and has been for awhile now. They long ago began taking money out of
"product" (as the MBAs refer to everything). Much of their stuff is now
sourced out of China and similar countries.

I just received all the Moog parts I ordered from Rock Auto.... All stamped and labeled Made in the U.S.A. I don't know if there's different parts in the pipeline that are originating from overseas, but these look like old school quality parts..... Maybe I lucked out & got some old shelf stock, but I'm really satisfied with them.....

Cleaning & painting parts today! Should have everything ready for the front & rear swap in a few weekends from now!
Author:  440_Magnum [ Mon Apr 25, 2005 3:44 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Quote:
The problem with avoiding F-M branded products, is you eliminate 75 % of the available parts.
H'mm. I disagree:

FM owns Sealed Power and Moog...so use TRW or Perfect Circle.
FM owns Champion, so use Autolite or NGK.
FM owns Wagner, so use Sylvania, GE or Narva (bulbs), Bendix or Raybestos or United (brakes).
FM owns Fel-Pro, so far they haven't messed with it much, but if they do, there's always Victor-Reinz and ROL.
F-M owns Anco, still a good product, but if not there's always Trico.
F-M owns Precision, no problem, there's Neapco and Spicer.
My solution is to go ahead and let the parts droid hand me a Moog part. If the box says "made in USA," I take it. If it says "Made in China" ask for a TRW part. I'm not a real big fan of TRW suspension parts, so I still like to use the non-outsourced Moog parts whenever possible.
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