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| No Start 170 https://slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15675 |
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| Author: | relic-lover [ Sat Jan 07, 2006 3:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | No Start 170 |
ARRGH ! My 170 is still a no start. I am out of ideas - I have checked and double checked and this motor just does not light. This motor was just reassembled on a complete rebuild. .030 over, .065 off the deck, .049 off the head, crank was cut .010/.010 on a core, cam is a M260 Clifford, carb is Holley 8007 (390 cfm 4160) on a Clifford Hyperpak manifold. New voltage regulator, electronic module and a remanufactured electronic distributor were added during the rebuild. There is spark - took the plug from #1, left it hooked up and grounded it to the valve cover. watched it while I cranked and it sparked. Checked the static timing - put the motor to the 10 BDTC on the timing plate (which is true TDC on this motor) the rotor is at #1 and the reluctor tip is lined up with the tip on the hall effect sensor. Opened the valve cover and the rockers on #1 are loose - so it is on the compression stroke. It has fuel also - took the Holley off this morning and checked all the adjustments. Put the idle screw at 1 1/2 turns from where the throttle plates seat in the bores. Put the secondary idle screw a 1/2 turn from where the secondary throttle plates seat in the bores. Put the fast idle screw where the .025 drill just fits past the throttle plates in the primary bores. Lowered the float level and inspected the needles for foreign matter. The accelerator pump squirts two nice streams of fuel when the throttle is pressed. There is compression - the compression gauge shows 90 psi. That is a bit lower than I would expect. I thought I would see 120 to 140 psi - the static compression math showed this motor at about 8.7:1 Valves were adjusted .016 Intake and .018 exhaust as per the Cam instructions. The spark plugs are new RJ12YC - the Autolite 56 plugs I took out before the carb was adjusted were fuel drenched. The motor cranks and occasionally sounds like a cylinder fires (it speeds up a bit). There are no pops through the carb and no backfires out the exhaust. Any ideas before I tear it all apart again and put a points distributor and Carter BBS on it? |
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| Author: | Charrlie_S [ Sat Jan 07, 2006 3:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Did you degree the cam, with a dial indicator and degree wheel? Or did you install it dot to dot? I'm thinking the cam timing might be off. Curious, what pistons did you use? On a 170, With .065 off the block and a "stock" configuration piston, the piston should pop out past the top of the block. |
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| Author: | 64 Convert [ Sat Jan 07, 2006 3:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
I changed over to a Mopar Performance electronic ignition yesterday and was very careful to put it at TDC and check exactly where the rotor was pointing so I could put the new distributor in the same way. It was off a couple of degrees, but I thought it would be close enough to start and adjust....wrong! It tried to fire a couple of times, but no start. I pulled the distributor and discovered the gear was not exactly the same as the old one. It was off half a tooth, so I had to adjust the plate under the distributor to get enough adjustment in the slot. When I put it back in, if fired up immediately. |
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| Author: | Pierre [ Sat Jan 07, 2006 4:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Make sure you have wires going in right directionon the cap - When installing my new cap a few days ago I put them in the opposite direction and it would sound like it would start but then nothing. Move engine back to tdc #1, take cap off, and bump engine over with starter. Follow direction of rotor and thats where #5 should go. (It doesn't matter where #1 is on the cap, as long as thats where the rotor is pointing to when #1 cyl is at tdc compression) Compression of 90 makes me think a valve is hanging open.... is it a consistent 90 across all cylinders? |
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| Author: | VDART [ Sat Jan 07, 2006 4:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
when you static time it-- connect a spark plug to the #1 plug wire(#1firing ) turn on ignition-- & ground plug --use the dist & turn it very slowly-- when that plug sparkes-- stop-- clamp the dist down in that position-- connect the plug wire up & start your car-- that spark should get you very close & once you've got it fired up & cam broke in you can adjust timing later-- good luck!!!!! Take A deep breathe & it will work out!! |
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| Author: | relic-lover [ Sat Jan 07, 2006 4:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | deck height and cam degreeing |
The motor was .066 down the bore when I got it. The motor was not decked by the rebuilder and when I took it apart the pistons were down the bore .065. I had the block decked by a reputable machinist and now the finished deck height in the closest cylinder is .004 down the bore. Yes I tried to degree the cam a number of times - There are a couple of things confusing me on this procedure. My degree wheel is numbered from 0 to 350. Changing the numbers to the ABDC, BBDC, ATDC and BTDC messes with my head some. Also I am not sure I understand the Cam Card numbers completely. I do not understand the minus numbers. I attempted to install it "straight up" as per the cam card numbers. The degreeing numbers on the Cam Card say -1 Intake Opens -9 Exhaust Closes 39 Exhaust Opens 31 Intake Closes -10 overlap between the Intake open and Exhaust Close When I measure the .050 numbers on the installed Cam I got Intake Open 1 BTDC Intake Close 28 ABDC Exhaust Open 40 BBDC Exhaust Close 14 BTDC |
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| Author: | Charrlie_S [ Sat Jan 07, 2006 4:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: deck height and cam degreeing |
Quote: The degreeing numbers on the Cam Card say -1 Intake Opens -9 Exhaust Closes 39 Exhaust Opens 31 Intake Closes -10 overlap between the Intake open and Exhaust Close When I measure the .050 numbers on the installed Cam I got Intake Open 1 BTDC Intake Close 28 ABDC Exhaust Open 40 BBDC Exhaust Close 14 BTDC |
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| Author: | Charrlie_S [ Sat Jan 07, 2006 4:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Just a wild guess, I don't realy know how it could happen, unless you redid some wireing. Wait , you did, right? you converted from point to electronic. Try reversing the wires that come from the distributor. If the polarity is wrong, the timing will be way retarded. |
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| Author: | relic-lover [ Sat Jan 07, 2006 6:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Wires |
Charlie - Yes did some wiring - Had to wire the module to the ballast, but the wires at the distributor were not changed. The remanufactured distributor is for a slant D150 pickup truck with vacuum advance and single distributor pickup. And the module was for the same application. The wiring harness was purchased from Summit for a Mopar ignition. I just plugged the module into the harness and the distributor's plug into the harness's plug - It is polarized so it can not be put on the opposite way. Are there different wiring harnesses for different 4 pin electronic modules? I guess I am asking, would the distributor wiring be opposite polarity in different Mopar electronic ignition applications? Pierre - The spark plug wires follow the firing order 1-5-3-6-2-4 in the clockwise direction around the cap. I think all the slants turn the distributor clockwise. And the pressure measurement was only done in the #1 cyl. It was just helping me see when the compression was happening in #1 to check the timing. I will try the other cylinders - that would be interesting to see how much different they are - and see if all have compression. |
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| Author: | Pierre [ Sat Jan 07, 2006 6:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Wires |
Quote: And the pressure measurement was only done in the #1
90 psi wether its in one cylinder or all is still way low - even the FSM states if a motor has less then 100psi compression its time for a rebuild.cyl. It was just helping me see when the compression was happening in #1 to check the timing. I will try the other cylinders - that would be interesting to see how much different they are - and see if all have compression. If its off on only one cylinder the valves may be out of adjustment - if its off on all then either all cylinders are misadjusted, its a ring issue, or cam is off. Or maybe head gasket issue? I think you need to concentrate on compression issue before you get into spark or any other part of the system. |
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| Author: | relic-lover [ Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | compression |
I guess it matters how fast the engine cranks. I took all the plugs out of the motor and cranked it for 5 seconds or so and the results are higher. 115 on cyl 6 110 on 4 and 5 120 on 1, 2 and 3 The 90 measurement was when I was just bumping the motor trying to get to TDC. |
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| Author: | Charrlie_S [ Sun Jan 08, 2006 5:00 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Wires |
Quote: Charlie -
As far as I know, the polarity is the same on all. I just didn't know if you used a complete harness, or made you own.
Yes did some wiring - Had to wire the module to the ballast, but the wires at the distributor were not changed. The remanufactured distributor is for a slant D150 pickup truck with vacuum advance and single distributor pickup. And the module was for the same application. The wiring harness was purchased from Summit for a Mopar ignition. I just plugged the module into the harness and the distributor's plug into the harness's plug - It is polarized so it can not be put on the opposite way. Are there different wiring harnesses for different 4 pin electronic modules? I guess I am asking, would the distributor wiring be opposite polarity in different Mopar electronic ignition applications? . |
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| Author: | CStryker [ Sun Jan 08, 2006 4:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
If we're talking OEM mopar stuff here, I believe the only difference between teh 4 and 5 pin module is whether it uses the single or dual ballast resistor. |
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| Author: | relic-lover [ Mon Jan 16, 2006 8:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | It finally runs |
I am jazzed - It ran long enough to break the cam in. The Ignition Coil and some of the under dash wiring were the culprits. There was a loose connection at the BAT terminal of the headlight switch which also feeds the ignition switch the way this car is wired. And the Ignition Coil was a P38 instead of P39. I think that is the difference between a std ignition and electronic ignition coil. Changed those Items and she fired up. Thanks for the help and the "stick to it" words. 
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| Author: | Charrlie_S [ Tue Jan 17, 2006 4:15 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Glad to hear that. How does it sound? |
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