hi sl6 sages- two questions. why have all the manual shift cars in the last 15 years gone from z bar linkage clutches to hyraulic clutch masters and a slave cylinder inthe bell housing to actuate the throwout bearing . and how is this an improvement. the only thing that went wrong with the old setup was maybe an ear on the zbar would break after 200kmiles and you would get it welded without paying a fortune. when the slave cylinder leaks in the in the bell housing, it costs a fortune to replace it and you are forced todo a clutch job. that usually happens in 100k miles or less. all the fwd cars are like this. seems to meto be areal step backwards in terms of cost and longevity. clutch jobs on a fwd are much more difficult than a rwd. one alleged sage told me they did it because there is no vibration through the pedal and the pedal is softer with a hydraulic. sounds like bs to me. what do sages in the forum say or am i just plain wrong. regards bob f

Advantages

1) Never needs adjusted
2) 90 pound woman can drive a car with a strong p plate
3) Size much eaiser to package
4) Good hydraulics will last more than 100k especially with fluid changes
5) The hydraulics need not be in the bell, they can be external

Disadvantages

1) They can develop a leak
2) Some are slow to engage/disengage
3) As with brake fluid the system should be flushed every couple years
4) When the system craps out you aren't shifting

Many of the front drive modern cars use a external slave cylinder to move a clutch fork. Think about how you would rig a mechanical clutch system to operate on a tranverse mounted engine. Next watch a modern car torque brake the engine. The mounts on most cars are soft enough to render mechnical linkage (not counting cable) useless. How many miles do expect to get out of a wheel cylinder/mastercylinder/caliper? All car parts will eventually fail. Even the famed muffler bearing occasionally needs replaced.

p.s. for those that don't know the muffler bearing is real

I've heard Accura's have them... what are they exactly? That flexible hose that connects the exhaust sytem to the manifold?

hi sages- read the comments and conclude there are a coupleofadvantages, but at a high price- more frequent clutch jobs due to reduced reliability not to mention increased cost. havent seen external slave cylinder on current cars- that would be an improvement. older ones(nissans in the 80s) had an external cylinder and a fork . have seen fwd transverse engines rigged with a cable and fork.never saw regular flushing intervals recommended in shop manuals of these types of systems. have had two now with internal cylinders an 01 saturn crapped at 70k and a jeep crapped at 100k. really doubt they will last much beyond that and then the fwd clutch job costs 1200. hate to sound cynical but the key motive here may be easier and cheaper installation at factory and big make work($$$) creation when system fails sooner. heard of the muffler bearing for the first time about 1958. replaced many but always had to get a special key to remove the vapor lock first. what cars today have an external cylinder or a cable fork or the old z bar. havent seen one. would love tohear about others experience with this fubar. regards bf

My 1986 Toyota PU has a hydo clutch, with an external slave cyl, operating a fork. Just found a leak, this week, at both the slave and master. 307,000 miles on the truck. Both parts cost $41.00 total. Time to change both, including bleeding, about 1 1/2 hrs.
So they are not all bad.

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Charrlie_S
65 Valiant 100 2dr post 170 turbo
66 Valiant Signet 170 nitrous
64 Valiant Signet
64 Valiant 4dr 170
64 Valiant 4dr 225

90s model nissans have a cable. when did phord do away with the cable on the rustang?

sb

Hey, I've got an 86 toyota pickup too............ 4x4 xtracab.

I've lost both sides along time ago....... Every once in awhile I'll practice clutchless up & down shifting incase one of them goes out again.

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Ed
64 Valiant 225 / 904 / 42:1 manual steering / 9" drum brakes

I forgot another advantage. It's possible for 1 hydro clutch system to work on a variety of cars/bodies/engine combos. The same setup would work on a early a body, late a body, small block, big block, slant, e bodies, b bodies and anything else you can dream of. Try finding the z-bar for a slant e-body they aren't common. Someone asked what acura uses. Acura and honda used cables up till around 90 and then went with a external slave cylinder and clutch setup.

The muffler bearing is a exhaust connector on some volvos and also an internal part in the muffler of a mitsu 3000gt and the dodge stealth. They had exhausts that could be adjusted for sound/flow by the computer.

Another advantage is many fewer moving parts and perfect geometry with only one depth adjustment. Another one is that there is no linkage in the way of exhaust routing. When the linkages start to wear, the pedal effort and slop get worse. These are the reasons I put a hydro setup in my 64 Dart with 5spd.

Lou

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Home of Slant6-powered fun machines since 1988

Hey, Lou, can you give us some specifics on your hydraulic clutch set-up? I know Keisler has a complete conversion ($$$), but I was wondering what other options are available, just in case I ever use that bellhousing...

VM

You just buy a kit from PAW (McLeod parts) for about $300 with the master and slave and braided line. This fits right over the stock T5 input bearing retainer. You have a to fab a link from the master cyl to the stock clutch pedal, which is no big deal with a heim joint bolted to the pedal bar and a coupler nut to the MC shaft.

Lou

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Home of Slant6-powered fun machines since 1988

hi sages- thanks for all the interesting and useful info on the hydro clutch. actually i would have no objection to the ones with the external slave cylinder and fork, butmost i have seen, just about all have the slave cylinder inside the bell on the trans input shaft. clearly when that leaks it causes a lot of trouble and ruins a good clutch, even if it doesnt when you get in there to replace it, you wind up doing a clutch job anyway. that job is abig expense and if fwd a tough job for a shade tree mechanic. i didnt realize there were a few others with the external slave cylinder.you know thatinternal slave cylinder in a 90 jeep is about 150. keep me posted. regards bf

i believe neons use a external slave with a modular clutch and a flexplate. very interesting clutch setup and very easy to put in. the clutch "assembly" slips onto the input shaft of the tranny similar to a torque converter and then bolts to a flexplate. flywheel, disc and pressure plate all in one unit.

zedpapa

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1970 dodge dart w/225 /6 bored .040" over, holley 390cfm w/vac. sec., compcams 252s, clifford shorty headers w/2.5" exhaust w/flowmaster, f-body 11" front discs, aluminum A-833OD, 8 1/4 w/3.21 SG
soon to have 5 gears!!!