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Rebuilding motor, and super six it
https://slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17703		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  RDJ [ Tue May 23, 2006 11:38 am ]
Post subject:  Rebuilding motor, and super six it
The 73 Dart Swinger has a window in the block (I bought it bought this way), so I am going to pull it and get a rebuild. I’ve gotten the super six 2 bbl manifold and throttle/kickdown linkage off a 77 Volare, with the exception of the lever on the transmission. I have the Carter BBD. My questions:

1) Is the transmission lever important? Is it different than the one on my trans (A-904).

2) Should I upgrade the fuel pump and coil? Any suggestions?

3) Should I get bigger jets in the BBD? The Volare didn’t have the lean burn system

4) From what I’ve read, the stock cam is a 244/244 with .406/.414. I’ve read that the mopar performance cam (P4120243) is a good way to boost power without losing low end (244 .436 lift). True? Where can I find one? I’ve seen the CompCam 252 with .435/.435. Would this be a better upgrade?

This is just going to be a daily driver, I would just like to boost the performance a little without having to create the domino effect where if I do too much in one place I have to get special parts for everything else to compensate
Author:  terryx [ Tue May 23, 2006 12:04 pm ]
Post subject:  engine build uP
I would recomend that you mill the block 100, to bring up the compression

then put in a 264 cam

and port out your head good


That would be some nice mods without going too crazy or expensive


then I would do you super six set up (don't mess with the jets) and put on a 2 1/4 pipe with a turbo muffler.

stick with the stock exhaust manifold but port it out a bit at the pipe end.


Then run the motor at about 10 deg advanced


Try it !
Author:  SlantSixDan [ Tue May 23, 2006 12:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rebuilding motor, and super six it
Quote:
1) Is the transmission lever important? Is it different than the one on my trans (A-904).
There's debate on that point. I've seen differences (shorter lever w/2bbl); others have seen no differences. Different-year parts books seem not to help clarify the matter.
Quote:
2) Should I upgrade the fuel pump
No need; they aren't different 1bbl vs. 2bbl.
Quote:
and coil?
If you're interested in upgrading the ignition, I suggest the HEI upgrade.
Quote:
3) Should I get bigger jets in the BBD?
No, that'll make it run too rich.

Quote:
4) From what I’ve read, the stock cam is a 244/244 with .406/.414. I’ve read that the mopar performance cam (P4120243) is a good way to boost power without losing low end (244 .436 lift). True?
True on all counts.
Quote:
Where can I find one?
Ping Doug (Doctor Dodge on here); I sent him my last new-in-box P4120243 and he had his cam grinder "pattern" it so they can now crank out new ones upon order. Last time I checked, his cam grinder hadn't quite understood that the idea was for anyone to be able to call up and order that cam; they said "Until Doug tells us different, we're only going to sell it to him". MP no longer sells this cam.
Quote:
I’ve seen the CompCam 252 with .435/.435. Would this be a better upgrade?
If you're a gambling man! Lots of problems with Comp cams and that 252 in particular. Bad blanks (improper oil hole clocking), weird lash specs, strange driveability problems, "blame the victim" customer "service" from Comp, etc.
Quote:
This is just going to be a daily driver, I would just like to boost the performance a little without having to create the domino effect where if I do too much in one place I have to get special parts for everything else to compensate
GOOD philosophy!
Author:  RDJ [ Wed May 24, 2006 10:46 am ]
Post subject: 
Thank for the replies! I do have the super six and plan on getting the 2.25 pipe.

I sent Doctor Dodge a PM to see if he is making the MP cam(P4120243). Otherwise, I think I am going to just stick with the stock 244 cam.

Thanks for the advice on the CompCams. The last thing I need is more variables to diagnose when I finally get this all together and it doesn't fire up.

I went into my garage last night, the coil was sitting on its side and had leaked oil, I guess I need a new one? (most of the parts are off the engine and I am getting the engine cherry picker to pull the motor this evening from a friend)

Another couple of (stupid?) questions, Do you have to pull the trans back to get the motor out? Or can you just pull the motor forward a little to get it out.

Do YOU take the hood off? I noticed in one post a while back (I think) somebody said they got theirs out with the hood still on.
Author:  SlantSixDan [ Wed May 24, 2006 11:27 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
I went into my garage last night, the coil was sitting on its side and had leaked oil, I guess I need a new one?
Sounds like it's time for a new one.
Quote:
Do you have to pull the trans back to get the motor out? Or can you just pull the motor forward a little to get it out.
If you remove the radiator and the cooling fan, and your engine hoist has tilt capabilities, you should have enough room to move the engine forward far enough to clear the trans and the firewall.
Quote:
take the hood off?
For sure! Much easier and less chance of sheetmetal damage!
Author:  terryx [ Wed May 24, 2006 4:49 pm ]
Post subject:  cams
there is another company that makes cams for the slant six

Cant rember the name but they do roughly the same grinds as comp cams but are better made. (someone should know)

You might want to thing about putting a 264 cam in, as its not really a lot more thank stock (ie still gives you a smooth idel) and lots of people who have a 264 still want for more.

just my 10c , but what do I know, I was too cheep to get a performance cam and just grabed the standard 244........... whish I had more though.

.......the point is you only get one chance to rebuild your motor

so go for it!


PS probably the most problems is going to be getting your 're-built' carb running right... Mine ran way rich and needed a lot of leaning out.. but the carter is fully adjustable.

Also till you get you accelerator spirt righ on your carb, you will have a 'bog' on acceleration. That's fun too :twisted:
Author:  emsvitil [ Wed May 24, 2006 5:30 pm ]
Post subject: 
automatic or manual transmission??


What everybody seems to forget is that larger cams raise the rpm capabilities of the engine, and where the engine produces the power.

What good is having more peak hp and torque if your automatic transmission shifts before you even get there?????????

:?
Author:  CStryker [ Wed May 24, 2006 5:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: cams
Quote:
there is another company that makes cams for the slant six

Cant rember the name but they do roughly the same grinds as comp cams but are better made. (someone should know)
There are several companies that make cams for the slant, but you're probably thinking of Erson. I love my 270 that I got from them; just enough lope to be noticable, and still quite a bit of low end, and I have a truck!
Author:  RDJ [ Wed May 24, 2006 6:00 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
automatic or manual transmission??


What everybody seems to forget is that larger cams raise the rpm capabilities of the engine, and where the engine produces the power.

What good is having more peak hp and torque if your automatic transmission shifts before you even get there?????????

:?
This is definitely one of my concerns (I have an automatic). Plus, I live on a rural road where the speed limit is 55 (some go slower, many go faster), and to pull out on this road everyday, I need some low end punch to get going. One plus, the car does have the 81/4 with 3.21 gears.
Quote:

.......the point is you only get one chance to rebuild your motor

so go for it!

:
Which is why I am struggling with this decision. I'm no expert on this subject, in fact I am totally ignorant, so I only know what you guys tell me. I have seen a lot of comments looking around the boards about people wishing they have gone a little more aggresive with their cams though.

I appreciate all the comments, I guess I will have to make a decision in the next couple of days and live with it.
Author:  SlantSixDan [ Wed May 24, 2006 6:29 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
I have an automatic. Plus, I live on a rural road where the speed limit is 55 (some go slower, many go faster), and to pull out on this road everyday, I need some low end punch to get going. One plus, the car does have the 81/4 with 3.21 gears.
Strongly recommend the 244° cam (or similar to it) for smoothest low-end torque and driveability with optimal economy.
Quote:
I have seen a lot of comments looking around the boards about people wishing they have gone a little more aggresive with their cams though.
Right, now go through and sort those comments by the type of driving those individuals do. Any drag strip time, even occasionally, means their comments don't apply to your situation. Any talk of high-speed bursts or the like, likewise means N/A.

One always wishes for more money, more power, more acceleration, more garage space, more time in the day. There is no such a thing as "enough" of any of those things; no matter how much we have, we always wish we had more. Remember that. Remember also that it's easy-easy-easy to overdo it when building up an engine. "Just a little more" camshaft, "just a little bigger" carburetor, etc. etc, and the cumulative effect is that you build yourself out of optimization for the task at hand. Keep the original goal in mind: Daily driver with a little sharper performance, cruising at 55-65 with 3.21s. Only advantage in that kind of service to a 264-270 cam is if you own an oil company; it'll cost you more gasoline without much payback given the task at hand. I have the MP244° w/Super Six, 3.23 and P205/70R14 tires in my '62. I find it a very winning combination. I do not wish I had more camshaft. I can get to 70mph in a big enough hurry to put a smile on my face, and once I'm at 70 I've still got half the accelerator travel left, so why do I need more? Answer: I don't!
Author:  RDJ [ Wed May 24, 2006 7:52 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:

Right, now go through and sort those comments by the type of driving those individuals do. Any drag strip time, even occasionally, means their comments don't apply to your situation. Any talk of high-speed bursts or the like, likewise means N/A.

One always wishes for more money, more power, more acceleration, more garage space, more time in the day. There is no such a thing as "enough" of any of those things; no matter how much we have, we always wish we had more. Remember that. Remember also that it's easy-easy-easy to overdo it when building up an engine. "Just a little more" camshaft, "just a little bigger" carburetor, etc. etc, and the cumulative effect is that you build yourself out of optimization for the task at hand. Keep the original goal in mind: Daily driver with a little sharper performance, cruising at 55-65 with 3.21s. Only advantage in that kind of service to a 264-270 cam is if you own an oil company; it'll cost you more gasoline without much payback given the task at hand. I have the MP244° w/Super Six, 3.23 and P205/70R14 tires in my '62. I find it a very winning combination. I do not wish I had more camshaft. I can get to 70mph in a big enough hurry to put a smile on my face, and once I'm at 70 I've still got half the accelerator travel left, so why do I need more? Answer: I don't!
Thanks for bringing me back to earth. It is easy to get caught up in all the options, but decent mileage and insurability is the reason I didn't decide to drop a 318 into it in the first place. My original goal was a nice cruiser and a worthwhile project. I think I will stick with it.

By the way, I truly appreciate all the comments and advice, maybe someday I will go hog wild with this thing.
Author:  SlantSixDan [ Wed May 24, 2006 8:46 pm ]
Post subject: 
I'm super-sensitive, maybe overly so, to "overbuild": I almost ruined, and certainly seriously degraded, a nice car with overbuild and feature creep. Rear axle needs replacing, so may as well upgrade, which'll mean a new driveshaft, which is a perfect opportunity to change from the '65 cable-shift to the '66-up rod-shift automatic transmission, which will let me install the later wide-ratio gearset, which will require reworking the front of the transmission, oh, and we'll need to do something about the shifter, which'll mean a new steering column, so what an opportune time to go to manual steering from power, and if we're doing that, why not install the 16:1 fast-ratio box...on and on and on. None of these was a bad idea, individually, but collectively they cost a lot of money (initially and on an ongoing basis) and wound up making the car much less enjoyable than if I'd set a reasonable, coherent goal and stuck to it.

In the end, I didn't have the heart, time or facilities to put the car back the way I should've done in the first place, or even back to original. I wound up selling it. Still miss the heck out of it.
Author:  emsvitil [ Wed May 24, 2006 11:44 pm ]
Post subject: 
I would really like to see a cam that takes advantage of the .904" lifter we have......

A cam similiar to the MP244 with at least .5" lift, large area under the curve, quick rise (like the compcams xtreme, but for .904), and asymetric lobes (quick rise, slower close to be nice to the valves).

You can get some of that with higher ratio rocker arms, but not the area under the curve you can get with a more modern lobe. (combine the new lobe with the hi-lift rockers.... :wink: )
Author:  vynn3 [ Thu May 25, 2006 6:15 am ]
Post subject: 
Couldn't Comp Cams (or any other cam grinder) grind a custom cam with such specs? Or are they limited to a certain lobe shape for certain cams?

VM
Author:  terryx [ Thu May 25, 2006 7:42 am ]
Post subject:  BAck down to earth build
OK OK don't over build ........ yes this is RIGHT

So here's what I sugest with that in mind


1) super six with 2 /14 pipe

2) do a real nice porting job on the head (pleantly HP to be found here, mostly port exhaust ports)

3) deck the block 100 thou (these crazy 6s have a super low 8.4:1 compresson ration that needs to be brought up.)


Then spend the rest of you money on the rest of your car, wich will also need mulitple fixes to be 'restored'

Also what I knoticed once I had 'woke up' my motor is that other parts of the sytem started to 'feel' the strain of that extra HP and ofcourse a heavy foot checking it out :wink:
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