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Upgrade, spindles, ball joints - need help
https://slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19077		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  RossKinder [ Tue Aug 08, 2006 11:05 am ]
Post subject:  Upgrade, spindles, ball joints - need help
Everything I could find about upgrading my '65 Valiant to to LBP had statements that one needed to get different upper control arms to do it. I've seen that in many places. I got the "new" UCA's

They told me the spindles, finned 10" drums, etc., that I bought were from a '72 Challenger - with the newer, larger ball joints. Everything at the top looks good But just looking at everything I'm not at all sure I don't have a problem at the bottom. I _definitely_ can't put the Challenger spindles onto the '65 Valiant steering arm like I've seen in some disc conversion pictures.

I can't tell what size the '65's lower ball joint shank is - whether the '65 Valiant LCA hole will fit onto the large '72 Challenger ball joint shank. And I've found nothing written specifically about the lower end of things.

Before I tear down my sole transportation, is the bottom of this Challenger spindle going to fit onto the '65 Valiant, or am I looking for new _lower_ control arms too?

If the latter, what donor would have the right arms to fit between my '65 Valiant and the '72 Challenger (10") parts?

Or is there yet another other option of some even better kind?
Author:  slantzilla [ Tue Aug 08, 2006 1:40 pm ]
Post subject: 
I wasn't aware that E-body spindles would work.
Author:  SlantSixDan [ Tue Aug 08, 2006 1:42 pm ]
Post subject: 
Yeah, me either. I'll be very (pick one: intrigued, amused) to see how this all goes/stops together.
Author:  Joshie225 [ Tue Aug 08, 2006 2:44 pm ]
Post subject: 
For one thing E-body upper control arms will NOT fit an A-body. The A-body lower control arm can stay. If the spindle is the same height it will probably work. The lower ball joint IS the steering arm on A, B, C, E bodies. You need the ball joints that match the spindle which should be B and E body 10" drum which is the same as the late A body disc ball joint. Any more questions?
Author:  RossKinder [ Tue Aug 08, 2006 5:47 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
For one thing E-body upper control arms will NOT fit an A-body.
I don't know what upper control arms they gave me. The mounting dimensions (length and width) are the same, but they are somewhat more heavily constructed than the ones from the '65 Valiant. Obvious difference side by side. I have put new '72 Challenger ball joints in them and tried them for fit on the Challenger spindles successfully. So as I said, the top looks good.
Quote:
The A-body lower control arm can stay.
I guess that means the '65 Valiant came with small ball joints on top and large ones on the bottom. I didn't want to take the old ones loose without knowing the large Challenger ball-joint/steering arm would fit the '65 LCA. You say they will, so I'm good.
Quote:
If the spindle is the same height it will probably work.
Just measured it. Same height. They just have considerably larger ball joints than what's on the _top_ of the '65 Valiant - which is precisely the reason I posted.
Quote:
The lower ball joint IS the steering arm on A, B, C, E bodies.
I know.
Quote:
You need the ball joints that match the spindle which should be B and E body 10" drum which is the same as the late A body disc ball joint. Any more questions?
Now we're right on the subject that concerned me. But you already said the Challenger's lower ball joint/steering arm would match the '65 Valiant LCA, so I'm good.

Thank you very much.
Author:  Joshie225 [ Tue Aug 08, 2006 8:46 pm ]
Post subject: 
Dan's amused because you seem to want to do things the hard way even when the easy way is spelled out. Yes, Ross, you might have to print out a couple of threads and pull together the relevant information, but it's all here. Sorry we didn't all hold your hand and walk you through the wrecking yard and swap procedure. You go so far as to buy parts of which you can't even confirm the origins. To be "amused" is rather understated and polite. Tonight I'm the bad cop.
Author:  Matt Cramer [ Wed Aug 09, 2006 5:33 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
I guess that means the '65 Valiant came with small ball joints on top and large ones on the bottom.
Not quite. The '73 and later A-body lower ball joints are quite different from the '72 and earlier ones, but there is no difference in the control arms. The later lower ball joints are larger in many dimensions, but the shank where they mount is not one of them. You can put any A-body lower ball joint on any A-body LCA.
Author:  SlantSixDan [ Wed Aug 09, 2006 6:45 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Dan's amused because you seem to want to do things the hard way even when the easy way is spelled out.
Yup.

Also now amused at Ross' apparent multiple personalities ("us", "we", etc...see above)
Author:  RossKinder [ Wed Aug 09, 2006 8:13 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Dan's amused because you seem to want to do things the hard way even when the easy way is spelled out. Yes, Ross, you might have to print out a couple of threads and pull together the relevant information, but it's all here.
I spent hours trying to find the exact information I needed. I saved several whole threads on my own computer. Some of it was there and some not. Some folks were very helpful, some not. I did quite a bit of PMing too.
Quote:
You go so far as to buy parts of which you can't even confirm the origins.
When I couldn't find everything I needed here I had to rely on a salvage yard guy where they don't allow you to pull your own part. And when I tried to confirm things I thought he might not have straight by asking here I got very mixed responses. Some of those responses side tracked into unrelated chatter.

Yeah it's probably all there - somewhere from some time long ago - in bits and pieces. That must be obvious if you already know all of it. But if I already knew all of it I wouldn't be asking questions.
Author:  RossKinder [ Wed Aug 09, 2006 9:05 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Quote:
I guess that means the '65 Valiant came with small ball joints on top and large ones on the bottom.
Not quite. The '73 and later A-body lower ball joints are quite different from the '72 and earlier ones, but there is no difference in the control arms. The later lower ball joints are larger in many dimensions, but the shank where they mount is not one of them. You can put any A-body lower ball joint on any A-body LCA.
Thanks, but the spindles are not A-body spindles. As I said from the first, they're from a '72 Challenger. That is the entire reason I started posting this thread, to get a clue whether the lower end of the Challenger spindles would mate with the '65 LCA.

As I said in the first post, it says in many places that when upgrading an old A-body to the large bolt circle the UCA's need to be changed because of the larger ball joints. But there has been almost nothing written about the LCA's when moving to the larger bolt circle and larger ball joints, leaving you to assume either they all fit or no one knows.
Author:  Johnny Z [ Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:38 am ]
Post subject: 
The larger lower ball joints can be installed in the earlier lower control arms,but some grinding on the steering stops may be necessary if you lose some of your turning radius.Later lower control arms are shaped differently in the area where the steering makes contact with them.

May I suggest a book for you.
Hot rodders do-it-yourself guide to:
Chrysler performance upgrades
by Frank Adkins

Excellant book,and will take all the question out of this procedure for you.

Have a great day!!

JZ
Author:  Joshie225 [ Wed Aug 09, 2006 5:25 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I guess that means the '65 Valiant came with small ball joints on top and large ones on the bottom.
Not quite. The '73 and later A-body lower ball joints are quite different from the '72 and earlier ones, but there is no difference in the control arms. The later lower ball joints are larger in many dimensions, but the shank where they mount is not one of them. You can put any A-body lower ball joint on any A-body LCA.
Thanks, but the spindles are not A-body spindles. As I said from the first, they're from a '72 Challenger. That is the entire reason I started posting this thread, to get a clue whether the lower end of the Challenger spindles would mate with the '65 LCA.

As I said in the first post, it says in many places that when upgrading an old A-body to the large bolt circle the UCA's need to be changed because of the larger ball joints. But there has been almost nothing written about the LCA's when moving to the larger bolt circle and larger ball joints, leaving you to assume either they all fit or no one knows.
Hold on Skippy. We've already covered this. The lower control arm does not mate with the spindle. The lower ball joint stud mates with the lower control arm and the lower ball joint bolts to the spindle.

Once again, the lower control arm can stay. All the different A body ball joints fit the lower control arm the car was built with. This is why so little is written about the lower control arm.
Author:  SPHERT! [ Sun Aug 13, 2006 8:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Front Suspension swap!
Here is how I installed the large bolt pattern brakes from a 1976 Duster into my 1964 Valiant.

Go to the local Automotive Recyclers and purchase the entire front suspension from the late model 'A' Body and take it home. The place I went to lopped the entire 'K' member off for me and I took the front suspension home, wheel to wheel, in the back of my Dodge truck for 400 bucks. Back-off the Torsion Bars and pull the clips AFTER you mark their position for reassembly. Remove the suspension from the front of your early 'A' Body and set aside. Pull the Upper control arms off of the Late model Suspension and place them with the early Suspension. you are now done with the old suspension....forever!

Install the upper control arms you purchased from magnumforce.com in place of the removed components from the Late model suspension. Install the late model suspension on to your early 'A' Body and reset you torsion bars. Now you can set your ride height to the altitude you desire and the front suspension will align perfectly. then you switch to a dual master cylinder and set you sights on a 8 3/4 rear end that will accept Discs better, than the old crash axle that the 64 currently has, and convert to the new bolt pattern at the same time. When you are finished you can drive the car and it will stop like it never did before
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