OK, it seems my theories were all wrong. When I sent a copy of the ECM file to Eli at Accel, he looked it over and said that it looked too rich under boost, just the opposite of what I was working on. If you read one of my recent posts here on the forum, you know the tuning I did over the weekend made things worse when I made it richer under boost. So Eli's suspicion rings true. The file Eli was looking at is a file that was produced by my dyno guy for a lot of money. After talking to Lou (Dart270) the other night, something he said made me realize that when the car is sitting in front of a dyno, the intercooler cannot do its job. Jason (the dyno operator) then apparently dumped in fuel, and dialed back the timing to get rid of detonation.

So I think I need to figure out how to get this tuned on the road, where the intercooler can be doing it's job. The problem is, when I tuned the Mega Squirt I had this genius (Lou) riding in the passenger seat typing away at the lap top, and I don't have a clue what he was doing. I only know that when we left the driveway the car ran like crap, and when we got back, it ran much better. I never learned to use the data logging program either. So now, I have to figure out what the heck he was doing, and/or datalog this thing, and get some road time tuning on it.

I have tried other friends for tuning help on the road, but it really went way over their heads. I don't know why I should be surprised. I never wanted to learn this phase of the thing myself.

What advise can you guys give me here? I don't trust my wide band gauge any more. I don't know if the problem is in the sensor or the gauge. It seemed very reliable and predictable it was new, but even before I changed over to the Accel, it was giving me weird feedback. I think the manufacturer of the gauge is out of business now. It was a basement operation run by a couple of hobbyist called Llambda Boy. Eli thought I should put the wide band up right behind the turbo, and move the narrow band down low where the wide band sensor now resides. Does this sound right? He has been right so far about most things. Where to go from here? I think all the really hard stuff is done, I just need to put in some head time now on this and get it right. All the tuning Lou did was with the narrow band sensor only, and with the feedback turned off.
Everything I have read so far, and it is very little, says get the base fuel map right first, or you cannot get anything else working correctly.

I have several EFI books, but they are basically glorified reviews of all the existing commercial products. They are more for trying to decide what product to buy, rather than trying to figure out one after you have it installed

Thanks in advance for all your advice.

Sam

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If you did not send him an O2 sensor datalog, then I don't see how he could say it was rich or lean.

I would say that priority ONE is to get datalogging working and we can go from there. That is how I have been doing my tuning (by myself).

Lou

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Home of Slant6-powered fun machines since 1988

You make a good point, but I would say he has probably been looking at these fuel maps forever. Also the file has specific information about this engine programed into it: bore and stroke, cam, compression ratio, etc. It also has a VE table estimator that might tell him some things as well.

You also make a good point that I need to do a data log session or two and get more detailed info. I will fool with the software and figure out how to do that.

So what do you do when you datalog? Do you drive, and then go home, study the data log, and make changes? Tell me what you are looking for. Are you simply trying to keep the o2 reading close to .5 volts? How long a run do you make? Is it just for a few minutes, or more? Are there other details of the session I should know? I think Calmap gives give me the option of choosing what data bits to record.

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Think of data logging as virtual real time gauges. Drive the vehicle through the block areas you feel need better tuning, then watch (after the fact) what all the data has to tell you on the logger. Make a change, like a 2% enleanment and run it again. Watch for spark knock, excessive EGTs, all the indicators that might tell you whether that was a good move or not. If everything feels better with the change, and everything looks better on the data, then move in for another 2% change or play with the timing by 2* and try again. Only make a small change at a time and take the time to verify if it was a good move or not.

Trick is to get BOTH the fuel and timing to work harmoniously. Lean it out, add advance. Get detonation, you can either remove advance or add fuel. The key pieces of information will be the spark counts and the EGTs.

Mike

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Recognized by US Federal Courts as a Fuel Economy Expert!

WoW Sam, you by all means need to be data logging. Your not going anywhere without this and I am a bit suprized to see that you have not already been logging. You REALLY need to invest in a good WBO2 system, I didnt know yours was a basement brand. You need proper info to even begine tuning. And the norrow band sensor is not going to get you there.

The possition of the WB should not be a problem, they even work better down away from the turbo a bit when you have one that works proper ( if there is no leaks in exhaust). If you do put it up next to the turbo you need to shield it from the heat or it well kill even a expiensive sensor very quick. ( Innovative makes a bung for this)

I know you have spent alot of money and its not easy to go out and buy a new WB system, but you are going to keep on until you kill your engine and the expeinse is going to be alot worse if this happens. Fuel milage alone will pay for the WB in the end.

Innovative LM-1 kits are $315.00, this kit is capable of data logging on its own to aid in tuning with proper feedback info on your laptop with seperate data on its own. It also has a 1v output that will give a narrow band signal voltage that could be used to feed the DFI system instead of the regulor norrow band sensor. It takes some recalibrations but it will work with the DFI system with WB inputs but I would not tackle this part just yet from where you are at in the learning stage.

You are going to have to learn the art of this tuning or be forced to keep paying tuners to work it out (which doesnt seem to be getting you anywhere) . This starts with good data logging and feed back from a WB. Without this info I dont see how you can get anywhere. Also plug reading needs to get into the act.

If you could, email or PM me the file you sent Accel I would like to look it over (if you wish) .


Jess

When tuning Sam's car, I don't recall the WBO2 sensor giving any unbelievable readings. Unless it has changed or has broken since our previous runs, it should work just fine for tuning.

Lou

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Home of Slant6-powered fun machines since 1988

Lou, the wide band gauge has gotten goofy since you last drove it. For starters, it reads 25:1 for a few minutes, and if I am lucky, then starts to read figures down below 20:1. It then will sometimes go back to high numbers, or even up to 25:1. There are times when it looks reasonable, and I think I recognize when that is, but there are times when I just think it gets a wild hair up its you-know-what, and I tend to disregard it. I am in no hurry here now, as the weather is beginning to go bad for cruising. It starts and runs, and I am on the upward part of the curve now. I think data-logging is a common consensus here, and I will get into that. Thanks for your input.

Sam

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I know there's lots of tuning tips on the Mega Squirt site, but you might be able to pick up on some ideas at the Dodge Calibration "D-Cal" site:

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/D-Cal/

Mike

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Recognized by US Federal Courts as a Fuel Economy Expert!