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| kickdown linkage BS https://slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=21210 |
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| Author: | john grady [ Sat Dec 23, 2006 4:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | kickdown linkage BS |
67 dart 225 missing this completely, (don't ask!) ; I bought two sets used, supposed to be for 67 dart, neither looked like shop manual. Engine rebuilt, new Holly replacement 225 dart carb, none of this ever together before. One lnkage bolts to exhaust maniflod two bolts, rod with spring in it up to carb, vertical, all fits and works, using that one.lt goes together , but notlike book, and seems to work OK(car not driven yet) What is going on? Why the sevral designs? And all V8's havespring, must be better deal ? Raise trans pressure sooner vs throttle opening/ (I think) ......... |
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| Author: | SlantSixDan [ Sat Dec 23, 2006 4:38 pm ] |
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It would really help us to see pictures of what you've got. The '68-up linkage setup was a little different to the '67 setup, but either type will work if used as a complete set. There is no need or reason to add springs where none existed before. |
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| Author: | john grady [ Sat Dec 23, 2006 4:50 pm ] |
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but ya got what ya got..and I think springs may be better...it is on all the hi po linkages..it is that slot with a pin in it that is pulled to one end by a spring? You know? with no spring, open and closed position of throttle plates must exactly coincide with TF pressure input swivel, or one hits first, at one end or the other, if set up by book. Unless all is poifect, which it ain't. ITHINK, but don't know, that the spring was added so they can hit together and smoothly at one end of travel, and if other end hits trans stop first, spring lets throttle keep going? I THINK..if so, it is an upgrade, and must be from later slant six? Or, they wanted to change the rate that oil pressure builds versus pedal travel, another possible reason (firmer shifts, less slip as on a 904 V8?) V8 904 has it... I guess how does it work ,and why(!) is the real issue, not what to do, if anything about it? |
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| Author: | SlantSixDan [ Sat Dec 23, 2006 5:20 pm ] |
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Pictures would still help us solve your problem, but it doesn't sound like you want your problem solved. It sounds like you have a random idea in your head ("springs = good, more springs = more gooder") and you want to re-engineer the linkage to suit your notion of how they work. OK, then, enjoy. 
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| Author: | john grady [ Sun Dec 24, 2006 9:35 am ] |
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hey, lighten up..I just want to understand how it works.."Just do as I say" does not do much for that, does it? Or maybe you don't know how it works, which is OK too, just say it. Not so very hard to say "I don't know?" No? That is what I am saying...I don't know. Or maybe it was carefully designed so that it was supposed to hit at both ends at once, and being perfect, never needs any upgrades or changes, and they just changed it later to a spring overtravel cuz it just felt good to do so? kinda like Ford and all mechanical rod operated brakes, right? They are fine, trust me, just adjust em like the book says..? |
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| Author: | SlantSixDan [ Sun Dec 24, 2006 11:08 am ] |
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Quote: hey, lighten up..I just want to understand how it works.
OK, then go grab an FSM and start readin'.Quote: "Just do as I say" does not do much for that, does it?
No, which is why I didn't say that. But, there's a lot of progress to be made with "Just put it together the way the factory did and you'll be fine", and with "Show us some pictures of what you don't understand". And with "Quit babbling about extra springs until you've put it together properly".
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| Author: | john grady [ Sun Dec 24, 2006 12:25 pm ] |
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so, you dont know how it works. I'll let you know when I find out. |
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| Author: | john grady [ Sun Dec 24, 2006 12:29 pm ] |
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PS, the FSM does not tell you how it works, or why there are two approaches. And the Lokar kit has it...with no real explanation of the "why". So it gets interesting, if you want to learn something new about Mopars, which I find kinda nice. . |
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| Author: | slantzilla [ Sun Dec 24, 2006 1:10 pm ] |
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If you are asking if the linkage travel hits the end on both ends at the same time, no it does not. There is adjustability built in to the linkage and you may not push the lever on the trans all the way back. That is a decent place to start adjusting, but it may cause too late of an upshift for you. The spring on the linkage holds the linakge against the pin on the throttle, it does not pull the trans linkage down toward the trans. Movement of the linkage raises the throttle pressure in the trans and keeps everything alive and well in your trans. Running without it and without the lever on the trans tied back will cause the kickdown link inside the trans to fall out and you will have no second gear. 
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| Author: | SlantSixDan [ Sun Dec 24, 2006 1:22 pm ] |
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Quote: so, you dont know how it works.
Whatever you say, ace. Quote: the FSM does not tell you how it works, or why there are two approaches.
Interesting. All of mine do. Maybe you're not looking hard enough.Before you proceed too far on your kickdown modifications, you might want to adjust your mouth a little. Or not, your choice—but you'll find you pretty much reap what you sow here, same as everywhere else. |
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| Author: | argentina-slantsixer [ Sun Dec 24, 2006 1:24 pm ] |
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The spring acts like a counter-travel aid so when you release the gas pedal, the trans line pressure drops instantly. This would allow for A) the possibility of suddenly releasing the gas pedal for upshifts when you've set the line pressure for firmer shifts under mid to full throttle positions. (Get this? you regulate the KD to shift harder under regular operation, but if you want to downshift sooner when driving slow and "sluggish" you just accelerate till you had enough of that gear, release the gas pedal and bingo! upshifts. Gently push the gas again and you're running low revved in next gear) Watch out for unneccesary spring tension as it adds load to the throttle rod/cable and it can transmit some side load on the throttle shaft creating all the conditions for premature shaft wear. It has to be a thin gage wire with THE MINIMUM tension needed to bring back the KD rod to its original position when you release the gas pedal. |
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| Author: | john grady [ Mon Dec 25, 2006 1:30 pm ] |
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Sounds good to me argentina..that is one reason I had not thought about; it also may allow you that upshift point adjustablity vs throttle movement, without affecting the end stop aspect. Upshifts as you may know, are set by balancing the governer vs throttle modulated line pressure, and the linkage sets that throttle varying line pressure. BY separating the end stops from rate of change w throttle opening, you could adjust it then to work right , on upshift and kickdown, and it will still allow the throttle to sit on the carb idle stop/fast idle cam without the trans tending to hold it open, or the other way round; the carb can keep opening more once the trans lever is fully moved as far as it may go, (not possible without a spring, or an alternative they may have picked with the "6 only" no spring solid linkage, , not moving the lever as much in total, so it would not hit before the carb at either end)which implies different lever ratios etc, which is what I was trying to get to understand, as I have a new Holley replacement 67 carb, and an apparently non 67 904/225 linkage w spring. The lengths of the lever links, and take off from carb shaft centerline distance must have been calculated to work a cetain way; LOKAR does not adjust that, they just let the spring bottom the lever , and the rest (carb) keeps moving. Again, no explanantion with theirs, only how to set it, and it looks like a sort of universal piece, not specific to MOPAR or 67 dart 225/904. But it may work, sort of Half Ass;Much better than no linkage , which is what I started with ... Not so simple, all this, if it is to work right.. I am not sure though we are talking about the same spring, as it only extends when there is differential movement (stretching) in the linkage itself between carb link and transmission lever. other wise it makes the linkage stay solid, in fact may take lash or freeplay out, another reason. As far as how it works , or is designed to work, regarding the trans pressure and throttle opening, being in the factiory manual,. tell me that page? All I have is pictures of it telling you how to adjust it, both designs No explanantion of the why . Remember "kickdown detent" on TF? I do...I liked it. No part throttle shifts down either, a real bad "improvement" . And adjusting that detent back then with the same linkage relates to this today. So maybe I have some Mopar experience, going back to 331 hemi's with extended blocks, in 34 fords. And cast iron TF w 392's ...before Slants..and this linkage issue. |
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| Author: | john grady [ Mon Dec 25, 2006 1:32 pm ] |
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Sounds good to me argentina..that is one reason I had not thought about; it also may allow you that upshift point adjustablity vs throttle movement, without affecting the end stop aspect. Upshifts as you may know, are set by balancing the governer vs throttle modulated line pressure, and the linkage sets that throttle varying line pressure. BY separating the end stops from rate of change w throttle opening, you could adjust it then to work right , on upshift and kickdown, and it will still allow the throttle to sit on the carb idle stop/fast idle cam without the trans tending to hold it open, or the other way round; the carb can keep opening more once the trans lever is fully moved as far as it may go, (not possible without a spring, or an alternative they may have picked with the "6 only" no spring solid linkage, , not moving the lever as much in total, so it would not hit before the carb at either end)which implies different lever ratios etc, which is what I was trying to get to understand, as I have a new Holley replacement 67 carb, and an apparently non 67 904/225 linkage w spring. The lengths of the lever links, and take off from carb shaft centerline distance must have been calculated to work a cetain way; LOKAR does not adjust that, they just let the spring bottom the lever , and the rest (carb) keeps moving. Again, no explanantion with theirs, only how to set it, and it looks like a sort of universal piece, not specific to MOPAR or 67 dart 225/904. But it may work, sort of Half Ass;Much better than no linkage , which is what I started with ... Not so simple, all this, if it is to work right.. I am not sure though we are talking about the same spring, as it only extends when there is differential movement (stretching) in the linkage itself between carb link and transmission lever. other wise it makes the linkage stay solid, in fact may take lash or freeplay out, another reason. As far as how it works , or is designed to work, regarding the trans pressure and throttle opening, being in the factiory manual,. tell me that page? All I have is pictures of it telling you how to adjust it, both designs No explanantion of the why . Remember "kickdown detent" on TF? I do...I liked it. No part throttle shifts down either, a real bad "improvement" . And adjusting that detent back then with the same linkage relates to this today. So maybe I have some Mopar experience, going back to 331 hemi's with extended blocks, in 34 fords. And cast iron TF w 392's ...before Slants..and this linkage issue. |
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| Author: | argentina-slantsixer [ Mon Dec 25, 2006 4:40 pm ] |
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we're talking bout the same springs, and works that way. Especially useful on 2 bbl linkages, but if you're going for firmer shifting on a 1 barrel would do it. Lokar can fix it if you install an adittional spring that's stiff enough to pull the line pressure (KD) lever and soft enough to collaspate and allow the trhtottle to fully open. THAT would give you top line pressure shifting at half throttle. If your transmission isn't worked like shift kit worked or something like that, I wouldn't recommend you do that. There's a post with pictures of that lockar KD trick installation, by me. |
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| Author: | john grady [ Tue Dec 26, 2006 10:13 am ] |
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Thanks Argentina! I may be down yoiur way, in a few months.. you will have to tell me thae good plan1 I agree too on linkage...you are able to set up upshifts without dealing with binding in likage at stops, or stopping carb from WOT... It will take some fooiling around, but I think we know the why of the spring and slot with pin..... Thanks again, John |
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