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| Would people use roller cams for the slant six if available? https://slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=21461 |
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| Author: | james jaggers [ Tue Jan 16, 2007 12:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Would people use roller cams for the slant six if available? |
I have been talking to some people about making some blanks for roller cams if I buy enough of them they would be affordable. I am using a roller cam no matter what. I will bite the bullet, but I will buy a bunch of blanks if people are interested. |
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| Author: | ROADRUNNER7169 [ Tue Jan 16, 2007 12:18 pm ] |
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I might be interested depending on how the erson cam buy goes get some figures on price and turn around time (also dependability vs. performance) |
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| Author: | Dart270 [ Tue Jan 16, 2007 12:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
You might consider talking with the Cox Brothers (Jim is the man) since they had some of these made a couple of years ago. There would be more interest, I believe, but the earlier ones were quite expensive. Lou |
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| Author: | sandy in BC [ Tue Jan 16, 2007 1:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Like any other great idea, its only an idea until someone has one made and tests it enough to ensure the market that it is a viable product. Not only does one need the cam and followers but you also need a method to ensure that it can live on the street......that takes time and miles. Whenever we develop new product here we test for 5 years before offering for sale.....2 years of that testing is in house and 3 years with special customers. Developing new products is expensive and risky.....even more risky without extensive testing. We are all interested...... |
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| Author: | slantzilla [ Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
The main issue is getting the distriutor gear hobbed on to the blank. I know Doug has worked on this before as well as the Cox Brothers. Most of the racers who ran rollers also used external oil pumps and crank trigger ignitions. This is an area where the end benefit has never really justified the expense. 
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| Author: | james jaggers [ Tue Jan 16, 2007 6:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | blank cost |
How much do the blanks from the cox brothers cost? I have emailed them before and never got a return. |
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| Author: | Doc [ Tue Jan 16, 2007 6:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
The best way to talk with the Cox boys is by telephone, they have never been real good with email. DD |
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| Author: | Rick [ Wed Jan 17, 2007 10:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
I've been reading my comp cams catalog and it says , in part, "Most street roller and hydraulic roller camshafts are made from a special steel which is compatible with the standard gear". The gear they mention is the distributor drive gear. Why couldnt a mild roller profile be ground on a standard blank? Is it the spring pressure, and if so, will it cause the lobes to quickly wear or will the shaft break? Since the lobes of flat tappet or hydraulic lifter cam are ground at an angle to force the cam to the rear and the lifters have a crown on the end that rides the cam, It must be a very small contact patch between the lifter and cam. Even with a stronger spring I would think that the pressure per square inch on a lobe of a roller cam would be less that with a non roller type lifter due to the larger contact area between a flat ground roller lobe and a wide roller, however, the stresses on the shaft itself would be more which I suppose might cause it to break. So what gives? |
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| Author: | DusterIdiot [ Thu Jan 18, 2007 6:13 am ] |
| Post subject: | Engineering... |
Quote: So what gives?
The only blanks available are pre cast/patterned for the tapered flat tappet/hydro lobes which have that angled lift ramp to them, the roller cam is basically the base circle with quick lift and max open at the top making it pretty radical, at that point you'll have to weld up the lobes to get them into the pattern needed to machine one from a standard blank (already asked your question at comp, they only get the flat tappet cam blanks)...the steel would be soft so the rollers on the lifters would ulitmately wear it out sooner, Doc already had fun with one of his experimental blanks and had to sift the shavings and pieces out of the oil pan (also if the cam has the slightest walk it will grenade the lifters and the cam). Comp Cam has had some bad luck with their commonly sold austempered chevy roller cam, the distributor gear survives fine, but the cam tends to wearout and grenade prematurely under stress (I have a buddy who put one in a Nova 350 not long back, and it made some great power...then one day of street driving it started to lose that power gradually, then it took a lifter when a lobe wore out...Comp Cams told him if he was drag racing he should've bought one of the Billet models...).-D.Idiot |
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| Author: | Rick [ Thu Jan 18, 2007 8:54 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
I'm curious as to who James Jaggers is talking to about a roller cam blank. From what I understand, Crane makes most blanks used today. Crane also made a roller blank for a slant at one time. If James Jaggers plan falls through, maybe someone with credentials (I have none) could talk Crane into making some more blanks if the order was big enough seeing how they have the knowledge, skill, and equipment. I can get by without a roller but I sure would like to have one. I'm after tourque and mileage in my project but if a real mild roller profile would give me a half mile per gallon increase over a flat tappet cam I'd run the roller. |
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| Author: | AnotherSix [ Thu Jan 18, 2007 10:01 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Even if you can get a billet roller blank, the big issue with durability in a street car is the oil pump drive gear. Bronze just does not last in day to day running. And even if you are willing to change it out regularly it is shedding bronze into your oil all the time. It is softer than steel but not softer than your bearings. On a drag car that actually gets very few hours between overhauls it works. I have been around and around this with a 440. On some engines a cast iron drive gear can be pressed on to the cam blank and a normal distributor/oil pump drive gear used. This seems the best working solution, but it cannot be done on a slant or BRB. The non billet blank with a treated gear (they call it melanized if I remember correctly) on the oil pump drive as used in chevys works for the oem, but no blanks or gears are available for us. I tried to get a polymer gear for a 440, but it is only available for a chevy. Sure anyone can spend enough and get billet blanks made. You will still have to deal with the oil pump drive, external starts looking like the easy way out. But thats a whole new project and expense and again not really for a street car that actually gets used. I suppose the stock plastic distributor gear would be a gift at that point. These kind of parts are very expensive off the shelf, one off could cost in the thousands. |
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| Author: | james jaggers [ Thu Jan 18, 2007 2:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Expense |
Yes I know. Does anyone have the phone # to the cox's boys? I would appreciate it. |
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| Author: | Slantenstein [ Thu Jan 18, 2007 3:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Jim Cox may be reached at : 614 268 9920. |
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| Author: | DusterIdiot [ Thu Jan 18, 2007 5:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | somebody else... |
Quote: I'm curious as to who James Jaggers is talking to about a roller cam blank.
Doc actually posted a company that makes pallets of blanks a few years back for all the cam companies (crane, erson, comp all buy their blanks from those guys), they'd make what ever you wanted, but 10-20K for a pallet of blanks gets kind of $$$ really quick (you'd need about 100 people to want to run one, before it pans out)...Most of the above arguements hold true, you could bypass the "headaches" and run the external oil pump and use a distributorless ignition system (I think $1000 for a cam and lifter kit, plus about $1500 for an XDi system, then about $1300 for an external driven oil pump system pretty much out weighed the cost of making 50 more HP and about 50 more ft lbs of torque in an NA application not worth the effort...) -D.Idiot |
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| Author: | james jaggers [ Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | blanks |
I was on the phone all day Tuesday. I can have myself blanks made for about 245.oo each. And that is only buying 4 of them. I can get them for 109.00 each if I buy a 100. It sounds like everyone is too scared so I am having some made for myself. I have already found someone to make my gear for the distributor. I am going to try it. You must go out on a limb if your going to get the fruit! |
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