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Enviro-Safe Refrigerants,
 Post subject: Enviro-Safe Refrigerant
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2001 10:52 am 
Enviro-Safe Refrigerants, Inc. does not generally put itself in the middle of arguments between people on bulletin boards, however it was brought to the attention of Enviro-Safe that there has been much Mis-Information posted on this site concerning Enviro-Safe Refrigerant. This post is to clarify any misconception that has been presented by unknowledgeable persons on this board!

I refer to the post by Daniel J. Stern of Wednesday, June 27, 2001.

1. Enviro-Safe Refrigerant is NOT isobutane and isopropane. Enviro-Safe Refrigerant formula blend is Enviro-Safe's and we will not divulge the exact ingredients within the product, as this would expose trade secret of the product. The product is labeled as Petroleum gases, liquefied, 2.1 UN1075.
2. Enviro-Safe has not "dodged the EPA by renaming their product". Enviro-Safe Refrigerant has always been Enviro-Safe Refrigerant. In fact, if Mr. Stern would have completed a "little" fact finding mission he would have found that HC-12a and OZ-12a were manufactured and marketed by OZ Technology of Idaho, Duracool 12a is manufactured and marketed by Duracool Limited of Edmonton, Alberta and Enviro-Safe Refrigerant is manufactured and marketed by Enviro-Safe Refrigerants, Inc., Pekin, Illinois. As to BP-12a, I could not provided any information as I have never heard of this company or product.
3. Enviro-Safe has never marketed its Enviro-Safe Refrigerant as non-flammable. The can explicitly states: DANGER: Contents under pressure, flammable gas. Can form explosive mixtures with air. precautions: Keep away from heat, sparks and flames. Container temperature should not exceed 120 degrees F.
WARNING! CONTENTS UNDER PRESSURE!
DIRECTIONS FOR USE: As per use with any flammable substance, take adequate precaution during use. #7. After minimum charge, test system for leaks. If no leak is detected, turn compressor on high, add additional product as needed. DO NOT EXPOSE TO FLAME! #8. Enviro-Safe Refrigerant is flammable with open flame and should be leak tested with...
4. It is not exactly true, Mr. Stern that there is "PLENTY" of R12 left, unless of course your are referring to "black market R12". Maybe you should enlighten these readers as to the acutal availability of R12, the locations it can be purchased and the legalities of the purchase and use of R12. There are several sites in which you can investigate EPA actions concerning the use, misuse & or purchase of "PLENTY" of R12.
5. Mr. Stern also makes a statement "For those who need more convincing" .... The complete version simply speaks of the MSDS PREPARATION, not the product and reads in full context:

SECTION 10 - PREPARATION

Enviro-Safe Refrigerants, Inc., 100 Caroline, Pekin IL 61554 Telephone: 309-346-1110 March 1, 1999
All information provided for this MSDS sheet by Enviro-Safe Refrigerants, Inc. is offered in good faith and is believed to be accurate to the best knowledge of the preparation analyst. The information contained in this document is based on documentation provided by the supplier and other documentation/information available at the date of preparation. Enviro-Safe does not guarantee the accuracy of this document and this information is offered without warranty, guarantee or liability on the part of the preparation analyst in good faith.

6. In another post by Mr. Stern concerning, "risk of fire related to a front-end collision or is there also underhood spontainious combustion risk?" You seem to indicate that the above happens when Enviro-Safe Refrigerant is used. Mr. Stern, since you "Think" you are so knowledgeable, could you please advise us and provide proof, of these instances happening with our product, please include Names, addresses, phone numbers, date and description of occurance.

AS to another post by Daniel J. Stern on June 27, 2001. Mr. Stern states; FACT: R134a is not (flammable). This is untrue and I suggest that you consult a HFC-134a MSDS sheet to provide you with the actual fact of flammability and personal hazards.

Mr. Stern continues to promote R12 or HFC134a and states that Enviro-Safe does not follow EPA simple guidelines. Well I suppose, once again, Mr. Stern has inadequate information concerning Enviro-Safe's position.

The fact is simply stated, If Enviro-Safe Refrigerant were to be marketed as a replacement for R12, application would have to be made to the EPA for the SNAP program. However, that is not the case. Enviro-Safe has never been marketed for R12 replacement, but that of HFC-134a and other CFC-12 Substitutes.

Enviro-Safe thanks all of the people who responded favorably to Enviro-Safe Refrigerant and wish the best to all.

Enviro-Safe does request that before anyone on this board decides to "attack" another product or company, they should actually speak to the company concerning the product, ask for information and acutally research the entire "picture" before offering any Mis-guided, unintelligent, ignorant and prejudiced opinions.

I am sure there have been many more instances of misguided, prejuditial and ignorant comments posted of Enviro-Safe and other products on this board. To this I advise, READER BEWARE! If anyone has any questions or comments concerning Enviro-Safe I suggest you contact us Toll Free at 1-888-913-1110. We will be happy to assist you and answer your technical questions.

And lastly, Mr. Stern, I do not appreciate your comment concerning "the last guy who tried to save the world wound up in the shape of a T.."
It is in extremely poor taste to comment on Christ in such an ignorant and defamatory way. If you do not choose to believe in Christ and his life, that is fine, I am sure you will change your mind while burning in Hell, however don't make defamatory statements concerning the faith or beliefs of other people on this board. Since this is an automotive bulletin board, to single out anyone's faith or beliefs is totally unappropriate!

Enviro-Safe will not argue with another "post submitter" concerning the legalities or statements concerning our products!

Enviro-Safe



enviro-safe@msn.com
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Daniel J. Stern
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2001 11:24 am 
Quote:
: This
: post is to clarify any misconception that
: has been presented by unknowledgeable
: persons on this board!


"Unknowledgeable" persons being defined by you, as it seems, as "People who do not stand to gain financially by the sale and use of your product".
:
: 1. Enviro-Safe Refrigerant is NOT isobutane and
: isopropane. Enviro-Safe Refrigerant formula
: blend is Enviro-Safe's and we will not
: divulge

Who cares? It's flammable. EPA states that regardless of the exact flammable hydrocarbons used to create such blends, they're all in the same category.
:
: Petroleum gases, liquefied, 2.1 UN1075.

See.
:
: 2. Enviro-Safe has not "dodged the EPA by
: renaming their product".

The comment was directed collectively at the various companies trying to make fast bucks by marketing unsafe products such as HC-12, OZ-12, and ES-12.
:
: 3. Enviro-Safe has never marketed its
: Enviro-Safe Refrigerant as non-flammable.

I never stated otherwise.
:
: The can explicitly states: DANGER: Contents
: under pressure, flammable gas.

So there you are. Automotive air conditioning systems are not designed for flammable refrigerants, period.
:
: 4. It is not exactly true, Mr. Stern that there
: is "PLENTY" of R12 left,

Certainly there is. The recycling/recovery program is extremely successful, and there is lots of R12 still stocked that was manufactured before the manufacturing restrictions came into effect. Have a glance at such a common site as <A HREF="http://www.ebay.com">www.ebay.com</A> if you need convincing.
:
: 6. In another post by Mr. Stern concerning,
: "risk of fire related to a front-end
: collision or is there also underhood
: spontainious combustion risk?" You seem
: to indicate that the above happens when
: Enviro-Safe Refrigerant is used. Mr. Stern,
: since you "Think" you are so
: knowledgeable, could you please advise us
: and provide proof,

Ah. "Where's the pile of dead bodies?" you ask. Sleep well at night, do you?
:
: Mr. Stern continues to promote R12 or HFC134a
: and states that Enviro-Safe does not follow
: EPA simple guidelines.

The wording on your website and product label is very carefully crafted in order to encourage people to install your product in R12 systems. Even the name of your product ("ES-12") is a part of this effort, as is your product labelling giving weight equivalencies for CFC-12 replacements. Pretense of innocence fails here. This is just another "For off road use only " marketing ploy.
:
: If ES-12
: Refrigerant were to be marketed as a
: replacement for R12, application would have
: to be made to the EPA for the SNAP program.

And you know you'd never meet that program's safety requirements.
:
: However, that is not the case. Enviro-Safe
: has never been marketed for R12 replacement,

Because you know it would not meet safety requirements.
:
: but that of HFC-134a

For which there are no substitute-substance safety requirements in place, allowing you to market your flammable refrigerant.
:
: and other CFC-12
: Substitutes.

HFC-134a is NOT a CFC-12 "substitute" at all.
:
: Enviro-Safe thanks all of the people who
: responded favorably to Enviro-Safe
: Refrigerant

Surprise...
:
: Enviro-Safe does request that before anyone on
: this board decides to "attack"
: another product or company,

Oh, please. I have nothing to gain by "attacking" (as you put it) your company or product. But when scams and shams hit the market, you can bet your sweet bippy I'm gonna squawk about it. If I've committed product defamation, have your lawyers contact me.
:
: actually speak to the company concerning the
: product,

I read the propaganda on your website. That's enough.
:
: unintelligent, ignorant and prejudiced
: opinions.

Yeah, gosh, what was I thinking? I'm prejudiced against dangerous refrigerants pushed with slimy marketing tactics, pseudoscientific doubletalk and shady use of legal loopholes.
:
: And lastly, Mr. Stern, I do not appreciate your
: comment concerning "the last guy who
: tried to save the world wound up in the
: shape of a T.."

You're free not to read my posts.
:
: It is in extremely poor taste to comment on
: Christ in such an ignorant and defamatory
: way.

What's ignorant and defamatory? He did try to save the world, he did wind up in the shape of a "T". Those are facts.
:
: If you do not choose to believe in
: Christ and his life, that is fine

Well, thank you for your *kind* permission.
:
: I am sure
: you will change your mind while burning in
: Hell

Whatever, Mr. preacher man.
:
: to single out
: anyone's faith or beliefs is totally
: unappropriate!

Simply making a reference to Christ without tacking-on "Lord and Saviour" does not constitute "singling out" or defamation. If you're so insecure in your chosen faith that you cannot see any reference to it without getting your panties in a wad, that's your problem. Not mine.
:
: Enviro-Safe will not argue with another
: "post submitter" concerning the
: legalities or statements concerning our
: products!

There is a word for someone who says "I will not do " after having just done it. It begins with an H.

DS

"Cream always rises to the top. However, so does pond scum."

--H.J. Capton

redbear@vrx.net
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Charlie Schmid
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2001 5:05 pm 
O.K. Guys,

Lets stop arguing semantics. I have just one question about ANY refrigerant other than r-12 and r-134a. This question is to any one who can document the answer. Will a compressor manufacturer or rebuilder warrant their compressor, when using any refrigerant other than r-12 or r-134a? If there is no part warranty, why use it?

Charlie
Quote:
:
: Enviro-Safe Refrigerants, Inc. does not
: generally put itself in the middle of
: arguments between people on bulletin boards,
: however it was brought to the attention of
: Enviro-Safe that there has been much
: Mis-Information posted on this site
: concerning Enviro-Safe Refrigerant. This
: post is to clarify any misconception that
: has been presented by unknowledgeable
: persons on this board!
:
: I refer to the post by Daniel J. Stern of
: Wednesday, June 27, 2001.
:
: 1. Enviro-Safe Refrigerant is NOT isobutane and
: isopropane. Enviro-Safe Refrigerant formula
: blend is Enviro-Safe's and we will not
: divulge the exact ingredients within the
: product, as this would expose trade secret
: of the product. The product is labeled as
: Petroleum gases, liquefied, 2.1 UN1075.
: 2. Enviro-Safe has not "dodged the EPA by
: renaming their product". Enviro-Safe
: Refrigerant has always been Enviro-Safe
: Refrigerant. In fact, if Mr. Stern would
: have completed a "little" fact
: finding mission he would have found that
: HC-12a and OZ-12a were manufactured and
: marketed by OZ Technology of Idaho, Duracool
: 12a is manufactured and marketed by Duracool
: Limited of Edmonton, Alberta and Enviro-Safe
: Refrigerant is manufactured and marketed by
: Enviro-Safe Refrigerants, Inc., Pekin,
: Illinois. As to BP-12a, I could not provided
: any information as I have never heard of
: this company or product.
: 3. Enviro-Safe has never marketed its
: Enviro-Safe Refrigerant as non-flammable.
: The can explicitly states: DANGER: Contents
: under pressure, flammable gas. Can form
: explosive mixtures with air. precautions:
: Keep away from heat, sparks and flames.
: Container temperature should not exceed 120
: degrees F.
: WARNING! CONTENTS UNDER PRESSURE!
: DIRECTIONS FOR USE: As per use with any
: flammable substance, take adequate
: precaution during use. #7. After minimum
: charge, test system for leaks. If no leak is
: detected, turn compressor on high, add
: additional product as needed. DO NOT EXPOSE
: TO FLAME! #8. Enviro-Safe Refrigerant is
: flammable with open flame and should be leak
: tested with...
: 4. It is not exactly true, Mr. Stern that there
: is "PLENTY" of R12 left, unless of
: course your are referring to "black
: market R12". Maybe you should enlighten
: these readers as to the acutal availability
: of R12, the locations it can be purchased
: and the legalities of the purchase and use
: of R12. There are several sites in which you
: can investigate EPA actions concerning the
: use, misuse & or purchase of
: "PLENTY" of R12.
: 5. Mr. Stern also makes a statement "For
: those who need more convincing" ....
: The complete version simply speaks of the
: MSDS PREPARATION, not the product and reads
: in full context: SECTION 10 - PREPARATION
:
: Enviro-Safe Refrigerants, Inc., 100 Caroline,
: Pekin IL 61554 Telephone: 309-346-1110 March
: 1, 1999
: All information provided for this MSDS sheet by
: Enviro-Safe Refrigerants, Inc. is offered in
: good faith and is believed to be accurate to
: the best knowledge of the preparation
: analyst. The information contained in this
: document is based on documentation provided
: by the supplier and other
: documentation/information available at the
: date of preparation. Enviro-Safe does not
: guarantee the accuracy of this document and
: this information is offered without
: warranty, guarantee or liability on the part
: of the preparation analyst in good faith.
:
: 6. In another post by Mr. Stern concerning,
: "risk of fire related to a front-end
: collision or is there also underhood
: spontainious combustion risk?" You seem
: to indicate that the above happens when
: Enviro-Safe Refrigerant is used. Mr. Stern,
: since you "Think" you are so
: knowledgeable, could you please advise us
: and provide proof, of these instances
: happening with our product, please include
: Names, addresses, phone numbers, date and
: description of occurance.
:
: AS to another post by Daniel J. Stern on June
: 27, 2001. Mr. Stern states; FACT: R134a is
: not (flammable). This is untrue and I
: suggest that you consult a HFC-134a MSDS
: sheet to provide you with the actual fact of
: flammability and personal hazards.
:
: Mr. Stern continues to promote R12 or HFC134a
: and states that Enviro-Safe does not follow
: EPA simple guidelines. Well I suppose, once
: again, Mr. Stern has inadequate information
: concerning Enviro-Safe's position.
:
: The fact is simply stated, If Enviro-Safe
: Refrigerant were to be marketed as a
: replacement for R12, application would have
: to be made to the EPA for the SNAP program.
: However, that is not the case. Enviro-Safe
: has never been marketed for R12 replacement,
: but that of HFC-134a and other CFC-12
: Substitutes.
:
: Enviro-Safe thanks all of the people who
: responded favorably to Enviro-Safe
: Refrigerant and wish the best to all.
:
: Enviro-Safe does request that before anyone on
: this board decides to "attack"
: another product or company, they should
: actually speak to the company concerning the
: product, ask for information and acutally
: research the entire "picture"
: before offering any Mis-guided,
: unintelligent, ignorant and prejudiced
: opinions.
:
: I am sure there have been many more instances
: of misguided, prejuditial and ignorant
: comments posted of Enviro-Safe and other
: products on this board. To this I advise,
: READER BEWARE! If anyone has any questions
: or comments concerning Enviro-Safe I suggest
: you contact us Toll Free at 1-888-913-1110.
: We will be happy to assist you and answer
: your technical questions.
:
: And lastly, Mr. Stern, I do not appreciate your
: comment concerning "the last guy who
: tried to save the world wound up in the
: shape of a T.."
: It is in extremely poor taste to comment on
: Christ in such an ignorant and defamatory
: way. If you do not choose to believe in
: Christ and his life, that is fine, I am sure
: you will change your mind while burning in
: Hell, however don't make defamatory
: statements concerning the faith or beliefs
: of other people on this board. Since this is
: an automotive bulletin board, to single out
: anyone's faith or beliefs is totally
: unappropriate!
:
: Enviro-Safe will not argue with another
: "post submitter" concerning the
: legalities or statements concerning our
: products!
:
: Enviro-Safe



flturbo6@aol.com
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Matt N.
 Post subject: ROTFLMAO!!!!!
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2001 8:30 pm 
There's nothing like seeing a corporate PR flack get put in his place by someone who's certified and has worked extensively in the very field that clearly refutes the use of a dangerous product marketed by said PR flack.

You go, Mr. Stern!

Matt N.
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Daniel J. Stern
PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2001 6:09 pm 
Quote:
: Will a
: compressor manufacturer or rebuilder warrant
: their compressor, when using any refrigerant
: other than r-12 or r-134a?


Generally not.
:
: If there is no
: part warranty, why use it?

Because many times, a new (under warranty) compressor is NOT needed, and therefore not installed, at time of system charging. If no compressor warranty is in question, the oil-carrying capability of the refrigerant you're considering is quite important in order to keep the compressor alive. R134a's oil carrying is very poor compared to R12, even with R134a-type oil. This is one reason why compressors originally intended for use with R134a have upgraded materials and surface treatments to deal with less lubrication. This is also one reason why less-than-careful R134a "retrofits" into R12 systems often result in compressor failure. And this, ultimately, is why if it is determined that R12 is NOT going to be installed and a new compressor is NOT to be installed, then an EPA SNAP approved, nonflammable, system-compatible refrigerant with excellent oil carrying capacity such as AutoFrost (R406A) becomes the attractive option.

Very good question.

DS

redbear@vrx.net
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