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F body cars and rust problems
https://slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25300		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  newport77 [ Wed Oct 10, 2007 7:42 am ]
Post subject:  F body cars and rust problems
Guys-

I recently picked up a low mileage slant 6 powered 77 Plymouth Volare sedan. I have always had A body cars so I don't know much about Aspens and Volares.

I had always heard about the fender rusting issues on the 76 models, but that Chrysler fixed whatever caused this problem in 77.

However, people are warning me Chrysler did not address all of the issues and that even the later model F body cars still had problems with rust in the doors, rocker panels, and quarters, and that if I don't take steps to prevent the rust now, that in a few years I'm going to have problems.

This car has no rust whatsoever, as it spent most of its life parked in someone's garage. The previous owner did have the car undercoated at some point.

I have heard varying reports of what was wrong and what needs to be done... something about there not being enough drain holes at the bottoms of the doors. Something about sound insulation that held water against the inside of the door when it got soaked, and how I should pull all of that out. Also something about there being another panel inside the doors that somehow causes the moisture to stay in.

Unfortunately I have no choice but to store this car outside, and I'd like to take whatever steps are necessary to preserve its near-new condition.

Thanks in advance for whatever advice you may have!!
Author:  SlantSixDan [ Wed Oct 10, 2007 8:14 am ]
Post subject: 
The F-body cars (all of them) are considerably more rust-prone than the earlier A-body cars. The careful 7-stage dip-and-spray rustproofing process introduced in '60 was long gone by the time the Aspens and Volarés came along, discarded as too expensive. No rustproofing to speak of for '76, that saved money up front but created hordes of angry customers and cost a fortune in recalls. So they grudgingly introduced minimal rustproofing efforts, applied in just as sloppy and careless a manner as the cars themselves were built.

How to delay the rusting process? You've pretty much got a handle on the concept: Disassemble to the maximum practicable degree, apply the best grade of rustproofing you can, make sure enclosed metal pockets have adequate and working drains, and keep the car washed.

The commercial rustproofing products vary in their efficacy and durability. For a short (but too long) time, I drove a dangerously rusty vehicle with a sticker proudly advertising that it had been "treated" by Rust-Chek. You want something that will remain flexible or semi-liquid once cured/dried, so that cracks won't develop. I've seen good results in bad (salty) climates by dedicated individuals having heated/melted Cosmoline and sprayed it into all the rust-prone places. Another very good one is Waxoyl. I've thought about undersealing a vehicle with truck bed liner material, but I've never tried it.
Author:  KBB_of_TMC [ Wed Oct 10, 2007 10:45 am ]
Post subject: 
I've been very pleased using brushed on POR-15 on my '71 Satellite with many years worth of SE Michigan rust. I'd recommend it anyplace you can put it where it won't show. I wouldn't recommend it on the exhaust, despite the claim that it is suitable for the mufflers on back.

I've seen a nice smooth finish where the fellow sprayed it on, but the dire warnings about its danger discouraged me from trying that.
Author:  newport77 [ Wed Oct 10, 2007 12:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Por-15
I think POR-15 is a good product to use for this. Of course it will be a lot of work to get all the door panels off and to go through everything to make sure the car is reasonably well rust-proofed.

Going back to what Dan said earlier, It is too bad the Aspen and Volare had the problems they had. It seems like such a decent, desirable car. I really can't find any assembly problems or anything like that. It runs, drives, and rides well.

Of course it really isn't that fuel efficient, although it must have been the best mileage you could have gotten on a Mopar until the Omni/Horizon came out in '78.

But these were among the cars that got Chrysler in hot water in the late 70s, so there must have been enough things wrong with them. I wasn't of car buying age at the time, so I don't remember, but I do remember these cars seemed to be everywhere.

I don't know that I'll want to use it as a daily driver, especially in the winter, if doing that is going to cause it to deteroriate. It's amazing it has survived in the condition its in after so many years.
Author:  66aCUDA [ Wed Oct 10, 2007 3:33 pm ]
Post subject: 
A BIG word of caution about Por-15 and other Rust products. I have been doing a fair bit of research on rust prevention and you need to make SURE you use the total process, ie Por-15 is a 4 step process Marine Clean, Metal Ready, Por-15, Top Coat. Used properly most of these products are ok. If not you will be disappointed.
My 02 worth.
Frank
Author:  Romeo Furio [ Wed Oct 10, 2007 5:46 pm ]
Post subject:  rust
Do a water check in the trunk area. I worked for Dodge in the 70's and most of them came in with trunks full of water. if you can't stop the leaks remove the spare tire and make a few small drain holes becareful of the fuel tank underneath also make drains in the lower quarter panels. I lived in PA at the time. Those cars life span were 3 to 5 years. We even had some that the front fenders rotted out before they even were sold. I don't remember the windshields leaking and causing floor rot. I second making sure that the doors have good drainage too. The fenders were recalled and replaced by Chrysler with a better design. Yours may have the better fenders. We got replacements in by the truck load as we sold 100 Aspens a month.
Author:  newport77 [ Wed Oct 10, 2007 7:24 pm ]
Post subject: 
I'm really glad to know that about how to use POR-15.

I'm also glad to know to check the trunk.

That is too bad that Chrysler did not do more to address these issues. How hard would it have been for them to just drill more holes in the body to drain out more water?

There's nothing else about these cars that would have prevented them from lasting a long time. They must have done more with the Diplomat and Gran Fury that followed, since those cars were based on the Aspen/Volare.
Author:  dakight [ Wed Oct 10, 2007 8:09 pm ]
Post subject: 
The mid to late 70s were a pretty grim period for all the carmakers. Chrysler was not alone.
Author:  newport77 [ Wed Oct 10, 2007 9:04 pm ]
Post subject:  checked a few things...
OK, we had an inch of rain here today, so I just checked the trunk. No water in the trunk.

Fenders- I assume you mean the problem area is the area right in front of the driver's door, down near the rocker panel?

There is no rust here yet, but if I look inside the fender from the front doors, I see no way for any water or debris to escape. There is some minor surface rust on the inside here on both sides.

Here is where I need to drill holes, I take it?

The bottoms of the doors do have holes to drain the water, but only on the ends of the door, not in the middle. Perhaps there need to be more holes put in here.
Author:  bob fisher [ Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:27 pm ]
Post subject:  fbodies and rust
hi sages- my 77aspen wagon with super six and 4sp. od was the best car i had out of 25 since 65. a strange thing when you realize a poll listed the aspen volare on the list of the 10 worst cars of the 70s and 80s. that list included the yugo, pinto, vega among others. while thedurability, ease and cheapness of repair and fuel economy on this car was great, the rust was another story. the car was in the worst environment-nj, snow, salt, air pollution and parked outside. i never saw another car rust so bad. bought new late in 76, a recall replaced the hood and fenders in 78. must have spent 1500 on floor, frame, spring perch, etc weldings until 06 when despite still running well at 360k i couldnt find a welder who would still attempt more repairs and it had to go to the junker, but it did run like hell for almost 30 years. although my respect for sl6dans and other sages is great, im not sure any kind of spraying or painting is going to do much good, since all you have to do is miss one spot and rust will go towork there. an engineer told me once the only realanswer would have been to rustproof spray the body before it was assembled and before it was painted. just my two pennies. regards bob fisher
Author:  Dusty Desks [ Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:26 pm ]
Post subject: 
Leakage from the outside isn't the only way water can get in. In some climates, when humidity is very high, water condenses like steam hitting a cool pot lid, in lower areas of the car, especially the bottom of spare tire well and rear floors because it is cooler down there. So it has to be kept well painted. Ditto on following instructions with POR-15 or anything else. The metal prep step is especially important because it kills the rust before the protective coat goes on. Metal prep is basically phosphoric acid (from the building supplies or paint store), and will greatly improve results even when using regular oil based paint & primer if you can't afford POR-15. Some cars rust so bad largely because the sheet metal itself is so bad. The technical name for it is "busheled iron", which is rusty contaminated scrap iron which is rolled out into sheet metal under heat and pressure without remelting and smelting, which would get rid of rust and impurities. The rust is literally built into the sheet metal, which accelerates further rusting by catalytic action and forming galvanic cells. They first started doing this around world war 2, to make cheap noncritical items like garbage cans, for temporary use under conditions of wartime emergency. Unfortunately, usage of busheled iron progressed to making things like unibody car structures during peacetime, and exhaust pipes & mufflers, and then to even skipping any attempt to apply any rust preventative coating .
Author:  SlantSixDan [ Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:32 pm ]
Post subject: 
Remember in the '80s how Lee Iaccoca used to rant and rail against what was perceived as the Japanese takeover of the American economy? At the very same time, he was buying top-quality rustproof steel from Japan Steel because nobody in the US made it and he never wanted there to be a repeat of the F-body rust problem.
Author:  Joshie225 [ Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:58 pm ]
Post subject: 
I'd bet it burned Lee that he had to go overseas to get that steel. Do K-cars not rust? I've never owned a front drive Chrysler product until buying a '96 Intrepid two years ago.
Quote:
Remember in the '80s how Lee Iaccoca used to rant and rail against what was perceived as the Japanese takeover of the American economy? At the very same time, he was buying top-quality rustproof steel from Japan Steel because nobody in the US made it and he never wanted there to be a repeat of the F-body rust problem.
Author:  SlantSixDan [ Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:11 pm ]
Post subject: 
The K-derivs did a lot better than their contemporaries from Ford and GM in the rusty parts of North America. One still sees a lot of 1st and 2nd-generation Chrysler minivans with little or no visible rust in daily service here in Ontario. The same cannot be said for the Aerostars and such that were being offered as competition.
Author:  Joshie225 [ Thu Oct 11, 2007 11:08 pm ]
Post subject: 
Well, that's good to know. I was aware that Chrysler was using heat treated sheet metal as a good friend told me about the body work he did to an Omni GLHS to get the upper fender corners to match the A pillar contour. Evidently the stampings weren't right because the forms were not made to account for the stronger steel. Maybe I'll have to grab an Omni body for a /6 drag car and spare my Valiant. Not that I was going to cut up the Valiant or do anything irreparable.
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