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Rick
 Post subject: degreaser
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 10:40 pm 
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3 Deuce Weber

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I found some great stuff to use as a degreaser. Its citric acid based drain cleaner from Home Depot. A 1/2 gallon bottle costs less than $8.00. Works real well. I had to clean inside all the lines , the evaperator and the condensor on my car a/c system and thought I'd try this stuff instead of the citric based a/c flush that costs about $15.00 per 16oz spray can. I got a lot more cleaner for a lot less money. It comes off with soap and water and then rinse that with water and you have very, very clean parts.The tree huggers will appreciate that its bio-degradable too. Its the best smelling degreaser I've ever used also.
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Charrlie_S
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 5:42 am 
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It might be great as a degreaser, but I would be concerned about using it inside the A/C refrigerant system.

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Rick
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 7:30 am 
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I guess time will tell if it was a mistake. I spent several hours flushing the cleaner out with soapy water and then fresh water. If the a/c fails I'll let you know. But that stuff is great at cleaning.
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SlantSixDan
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 8:20 am 
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Are you talking about cleaning the exterior (fins) of the condenser and evaporator, or the interior (tubes)?

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Charrlie_S
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 9:22 am 
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Oh, Man. If you used water to flush the internal tubes, you will have major problems. NEVER, EVER, introduce water into an A/C sysrem. Even when the hoses are disconnected the ends should be "capped" off to prevent moisture from the humidity in the air from getting into the system. You should flush the system with a low boiling point cleaner/flush, to remove most of the water. Then evacutate the system with a high vacuum pump for several hours to "boil" off the cleaner and residual moisture. Then install a new drier, and evacuate, again. If you have already run the system, you will also need to drain the oil from the compressor, and replace the oil.

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SlantSixDan
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 9:52 am 
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Oh, Man. If you used water to flush the internal tubes, you will have major problems. NEVER, EVER, introduce water into an A/C sysrem.
Yeah. What Charrlie_S said. I was holding off on saying it until it was clear whether you were cleaning the outside or the inside of the condenser and evaporator.

Water + A/C system = extensive and expensive damage.

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Rick
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 12:06 am 
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Yes, I washed the inside of the lines, condensor and evaperator. I used my el-cheapo , vacuum type sandblast gun to suck the cleaner through the items, then used soapy water, then fresh water and then mek on the metal parts. I laid the condensor and the lines in the sun to dry, blew out the evaperator with compressed air, assembled everything, drew a 28" vacuum on it for about 2hours, let it sit overnight to make sure it wasnt leaking, then drew a vacuum on it for about 3-4 more hours. I then took one hose loose from the compressor and added the pag oil, buttoned it back up and charged it with a hydrocarbon refrigerant. The hydrocarbon refrigerant doesnt turn caustic when moisture is present like r12 or r134 does but I didnt like the moisture getting in the oil.I then turned the compressor about 100 revolutions by hand so it didnt get a slug of oil when I fired it up. I've driven it about 350 miles so far and its working fine so far. It also blows 40 degree cold air on the road which I really enjoy. If it fails I will do the same thing again but with the added step of filling the system with nitrogen once or twice to absorb moisture inbetween drawing it down. My stuff was totally unusable without the cleaning. My junkyard compressor had gone bad . I think from a bad expansion valve. I replaced the expansion valve and compressor and cleaned that black crap out of the rest. If it fails I'll let you know. hopefully, after all that work ( but not very much money) it will work fine for a long time.
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Charrlie_S
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 4:04 am 
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charged it with a hydrocarbon refrigerant. .
:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

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Bren67Cuda904
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 6:10 am 
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Which refrigerant did you use?
Using nitrogen between evacuation (vacuuming) is called sweeping. It does not absorb moister. Unless its medical grade nitrogen it likely added some moister, but the benifts of the sweep likely out weighed the moister in the nitrogen. Do you have a micron gauge? For cars its nice to pull down to at least 500. 250 would be better but thats hard to get to in most cars.
If you changed the drier, I think that was your saving grace.

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SlantSixDan
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 7:49 am 
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Quote:
charged it with a hydrocarbon refrigerant
Using hydrocarbon refrigerants in auto A/C is selfish, foolish and very dangerous. And illegal, but that scarcely matters in light of the danger. The reasons why this is so have been covered in depth on this forum before. Do what you will on your own car (as long as you will be the only one ever to go near its A/C system for any kind of service procedure), but readers need to know that your water-based cleanout and hydrocarbon charge up are very much the wrong thing to do, times two.

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BigBlockBanjo
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 9:18 pm 
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What are ya'll talking about..."Hydrocarbon refrigerant"?????
You mean propane? (That stuff works too, but also dangerous, ect.)
Just trying to find out, so I'll know next time.

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SlantSixDan
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 9:43 pm 
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Isobutane and isopropane (but some blockheads don't know the difference between iso- and barbecue-grade propane, run the latter into their A/C systems and cause big safety problems and extensive system damage all in one go.)

See threads here and here.

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Rick
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 10:47 pm 
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The refrigerant is called enviro-safe. Its a mixture of propane and isobutane. It works really well. It gets as cold as r12 , but unlike r12, I can buy it. Read up on it and you will find that it is not illegal to use, is readily available, easy to use, does not destroy the ozone layer and works well at lower pressures than r12 .A lot of people want to talk about its ability to explode, but amazingly, no one can point to a single instance of it happening.It seems to me that for it to explode you would have to introduce a source of ignition while its under pressure. For it to be under pressure it would have to be contained. While its contained a source of ignition can't get to it. That stuff in the gas tank ingnites pretty easy too but no one says anything about that. And its going to get pumped continuously, no matter how big a leak is in the system, till the power to the pump is shut off. I just wanted to bring to light a cheap good degreaser and cleaner. I'm not trying to get anyone to do what I did to make my a/c system work, but it does work and is working damn well. The next time you need a good degreaser try the citric garbage disposal stuff from Home Depot. Its good stuff.
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dakight
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 4:44 am 
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http://www.epa.gov/ozone/snap/refrigerants/hc-12a.html

Note especially paragraph 3:
Quote:
What is the legal status of hydrocarbon refrigerants such as HC-12a® and DURACOOL®?
It has been illegal since July 13, 1995 to replace CFC-12 with the HC-12a® formulation that was submitted for SNAP review in any refrigeration or A/C application other than industrial process refrigeration. The same prohibition for OZ-12® took effect on April 18, 1994. Because DURACOOL 12a® has the same chemical composition as the HC-12a® formulation that was submitted for SNAP review (i.e., Hydrocarbon Blend B), DURACOOL 12a® is also subject to the same restrictions.
HC-12a®, as reformulated to meet DOT requirements, is not the same as Hydrocarbon Blend B and has not been submitted for SNAP review. OZ Technology is therefore prohibited from marketing this blend as a substitute for any ozone-depleting substance. In addition, any use of this blend as a substitute for CFC-12 or any other ozone-depleting chemical, in industrial process refrigeration or any other refrigeration or A/C end use, is prohibited under the Clean Air Act.

Since HC-12a®, as submitted for SNAP review, is chemically different from HC-12a®, as reformulated to meet DOT requirements, and since it has a different legal status under the Clean Air Act, users of any substance marketed as HC-12a® should be aware of which HC-12a® they have purchased.

Note that the Clean Air Act does not regulate the use of any of these hydrocarbon refrigerants when they are used as replacements for non-ozone-depleting chemicals such as HFC-134a. However, many states prohibit using flammable refrigerants in motor vehicles, regardless of which original refrigerant was used in the vehicle.
Propane and butane are highly flammable substances - butane is the fill liquid in a disposable cigarette lighter. If the system were to develop a leak, dangerous concentrations of flamabble gas could easily accumulate in the confined space under the hood, or in a garage, and be a serious hazard. You may want to risk life an property just because "no one can point to a single incident" but I don't.

Your citrus degreaser may be a great product and I may very well give it a try when I have the need, but I won't be putting it in my AC system and I assuredly won't be using hydrocarbon refrigerants.

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KBB_of_TMC
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 11:37 am 
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Out of curiosity, I read over the EPA pages and as I read it it is legal under fed law to go from R12 to R134a, and legal to go from R134a to HC, but illegal to go from R12 to HC.

I checked Virginia law and it is a $30 fine for using HC in an automotive AC system. VA has lots of odd little laws.
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