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Altitude upgrades https://slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26418 |
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Author: | Mad Max [ Fri Dec 28, 2007 8:56 am ] |
Post subject: | Altitude upgrades |
Hiya folks - new to site and I gots a couple questions. First off, picked up a very clean, low-mile '73 Dart Custom 4-door - it is a 225 1bbl/auto and is my daily-driver. It is in very good shape and has only 42,000 original miles. Probably has the factory 'everything' under the hood - plugs, wires, etc. Runs well enough but very low power. We live in Colorado and our home is at 6800 ft elevation, and I know that takes a toll on power. My question is, are there any altitude-specific tuning tips I can employ? It tends to diesel a bit and then has trouble starting, but after opening the throttle for a few revs it'll fire right up, so I'm pretty sure it's running rich. Mileage also seems to be low so again, fuel. Eventually I would like to at least get in some more air with a super-6 setup and maybe a bit more timing, but this has to be a low-buck car for a while. I'd like to also look into a better ignition system over the factory parts. I'm not in a huge hurry to start wrenching on the little guy (like I usually do with a new project...), but as the car shows and swap meets start coming I'd like to maybe have a list of goodies to look for for some fun summertime upgrades, and any thoughts would be much appreciated. I am a long-time big block and small-block guy and have owned and driven everything from a '68 Valiant with a slant 6 (first car) to my '71 Demon with a 440/4-speed to my '93 Cummins diesel tugboat to our recently sold '05 Hemi Magnum, but this little Dart brings me back to my roots with that Valiant, and I really dig the little guy. So, I know what power feels like and I'm not expecting this little Dart to run like any of those, but it really seems anemic and I'd dig any thoughts y'all have. Thanks so much, - Sam |
Author: | ceej [ Fri Dec 28, 2007 9:30 am ] |
Post subject: | |
Welcome Sam! It sounds like you nailed it. If you truely have orignal wires and vacuum lines etc.. It might be time to get a good solid tuneup on the Dart and replace all that stuff. Get some fresh plugs in there, then drive and read them. If it is running rich, your just a re-jet away from better economy. Your Drool Tube's could probably use new seals. Don't forget to remove the crush washers from the plugs. The aluminum tube provides the sealing surface. I'm running NGK ZFR5N plugs. They work very well in this engine. Have you computed your mileage yet? I peaked out around 18 with the Holley 1945. My driving can be considered combined at best. No real "Highway" driving. Check your timing set for excessive slop. If it's loose, replace it, and while your there, flush the cooling system and replace the water pump, hoses, stuff like that. Time isn't kind to seals and rubber parts. Have fun! ![]() CJ |
Author: | Mad Max [ Sat Dec 29, 2007 8:00 am ] |
Post subject: | |
Thanks CJ. I'll get a baseline done fairly soon, and I want to try to find a 2bbl setup locally. Anyone have a super 6 setup near Colorado? ![]() The super 6 is essentially the 2bbl version of the intake, carb, and air cleaner, right? Did any of those come fro mthe factory and on which vehicles? I'm guessing vans, trucks, etc? Were they all aluminum intakes? I'd just want to find out what to look for at the bone yards and maybe I can find one locally. - Sam |
Author: | ceej [ Sat Dec 29, 2007 8:10 am ] |
Post subject: | |
Substantially correct. Don't forget the kickdown linkage! ![]() It's different, and you will need it. Another option is to install a Lokar cable. Your choice. Some of the folks here have built their own. I took the easy way out with the cable. Aluminum? I dunno. I've heard of issues with factory Aluminum intakes. I run an Offy, so don't have any experience with them. ![]() CJ |
Author: | SlantSixDan [ Sat Dec 29, 2007 9:28 am ] |
Post subject: | |
Welcome on the board. Low-miles cars are a lot of fun, nothin' like 'em. Show us some pictures! It definitely sounds like a major tune-up is in order, including a careful rebuild of the carburetor (with new float) if you're keeping the 1bbl even for just the short term. Don't be tempted to install a "remanufactured" carburetor from a parts store; they're junk. It sounds like the choke is behaving like the '73 nonadjustable chokes tend to behave: Poorly. You may want to install one of the electric choke kits instead. Tune-up parts and technique suggestions in this thread. Also see the valve adjustment procedure. Your '73 has a not-particularly-optimal spark advance curve — you will want to recurve the distributor or drop in one of the new 3874714 distributors that go by pretty frequently on eBay. Your '73 also carries a great deal of first-generation emission control equipment that scarcely worked properly even when brand new. You'll find the OSAC valve on the passenger side of the firewall. Two vacuum hoses run to it: one from the carburetor, and one from the distributor. Bypass this valve; run the vacuum hose directly from the carburetor to the distributor. This will greatly reduce the sluggishness on acceleration. Given Colorado's altitude and the fuel composition there, you will likely see a significant improvement in cold and hot starting if you do the fuel line mod. The Super Six setup is highly desirable. It's difficult to think of any downsides to it, assuming you find and install a good carburetor (again, "reman" units aren't worth messing with). This setup was available in most all slant-6 applications (car, truck, van) from '76-'82, but not in all markets in all years (some years they weren't available in high-altitude markets, some years not in California, etc.) The intakes were made in both iron and aluminum. The aluminum ones can be used successfully, but doing so requires a great deal more care and preparation, because they are problem-prone (cracks, warp, porous castings). See this post and the links from it. If you do decide to go ahead with the Super Six, you'll need the air cleaner, carburetor, intake manifold, shorter throttle cable, and complete throttle/kickdown linkage and bracket setup. The other option is to retrofit a kickdown cable. Lokar cables can be made to work, but this seems a better option and uses factory parts for easy service. I've posted a lengthy manual for the Carter BBD carb used on the Super Six; you can get it here. Don't know where you are in Colorado; if you're in the greater Denver metro area I can recommend some good resources for parts. This post is a start in that direction, and then there's the yard I worked at. Make sure you have at least the factory service manual for your '73. |
Author: | Mad Max [ Sun Dec 30, 2007 7:52 am ] |
Post subject: | |
Thanks for all the great info - that is some good stuff, much appreciated ![]() I must love this hobby/life style 'cause I just went out in the 15* chilly Colorado winter morning to snap some decent sunny Colorado winter morning pics of the little guy ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() I definitely have an over-abundance of fuel - for the second time in as many days...after a not-long-enough warm-up...it has sputtered to a stall and died...and not restarted, regardless of pedal efforts. But, after removing top of air cleaner and holding open the choke it clears right out and refires. Definitely too much fuel and/or not enough spark. I will incorporate all advice above and today I will RnR the ignition components and plugs, and get some readings. - Sam[/url] |
Author: | SlantSixDan [ Sun Dec 30, 2007 8:15 am ] |
Post subject: | |
Sharp-lookin' car! Looks like power disc brakes (score!), aftermarket aircon, and the noise reduction package at least. If you'll post a clear, sharp, full-frame picture of the fender tag, or carefully transcribe the contents of the tag and post them here exactly as they appear on the tag, we can tell you a lot more about your car, including when and where it was built and how it was originally equipped. The fender tag is on the driver's side inner fender and is a metal plate about 2" high by 3" wide containing letters and numbers. Still don't know what general area of CO you're in, though ![]() Sounds like your carb's choke pull-off may not be working correctly (or at all). See here, but remember that only the choke pull-off (not the choke "well"/"stove"/thermostat) can be adjusted on your '73 unless/until you install one of the electric units. |
Author: | Mad Max [ Tue Jan 01, 2008 10:18 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
Well, I changed out the plugs, and opened the carb bowl and it had a #61 jet which I replaced with a #60. Haven't checked the new NGK's yet (tomorrow) but that should tell me if it's running rich or not. One problem it is still having is difficulty starting. More often than not I have to floor it to get it to start - seemingly always flooded when I go to start it. Dead cold it seems to start fine on the choke but it usually takes a couple attempts before it'll actually stay running. First or second attempt it'll fire up for a moment then just seems to slow down and stop - almost like it has really thick oil and it is just being stubborn. But after it's warmed up, going to start it seems to be flooded out - if I floor it it clear out and fires. Haven't figured out why just yet but I'm still working on it. Just a progress report I guess. If it was a Carter AFB I'd have been done long ago, but these little 1bbls...while simpler, they are kinda finiky. It also has intermittent hesitation off idle for aceleration which leads me to think the accel pump is dying.....so I'm thinking after 35 years this low-mile carb probably needs some freshining up. - Sam |
Author: | rock [ Wed Jan 02, 2008 7:02 am ] |
Post subject: | Man what a nice car, and re. the kickdown |
Wow! I would love to get a mellow car like that!!! I was assigned one once from a US Gov't motor pool and thought it was a great car. Your pics brought back memeories. Regarding your kickdown linkage, if you go the cable route, the link to BPE that Dan gave you is a portal to several nice products. I used the BPE kickdown cable for my 727, used their 4bbl adapter and some other stuff they sell. I couldn't be more pleased with the products and service. Heck, you can call em up and talk to guys who like to talk! The "kits" have all you need to "plug and play" and the info BPE provides on how to do it is as good as I've seen. Obviously produced by someone who would stop at each step and say to him or herself, tell em about this. Nuttin against Lokar, just in cae you wondered about BPE. I am not a fan of the mechanical rod linkage since the cable works so easily. rock '64d100 |
Author: | SlantSixDan [ Wed Jan 02, 2008 9:19 am ] |
Post subject: | |
Carb kit + new float + electric choke conversion kit. |
Author: | Hemitym [ Wed Jan 02, 2008 3:22 pm ] |
Post subject: | Little off subject |
Looks like the air conditioning must be working very well. If that was a local car that AC pump probably has a few more decades left on it. NICE CAR. Wayne[/img] |
Author: | Mad Max [ Sun Jan 06, 2008 2:32 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
Thanks for the props folks - it is a real nice car, and fun to drive ![]() But, I'd say the little guy's not running so well. Here's the news: - 1st fill up = 15.4 mpg - Low on power - Seems to be flooded on each start-up (requires full pedal to clear out, when fires there's black smoke out the pipe, then it settles down and runs) - When dead cold, fires and stays running after second key-turn (takes a few attempts to get its heart started...literally) - New NGK's are bone white - definitely not running rich...I'd even say lean - Exhaust pipe butterfly valve (below the carb base) seems to be nearly inop/non-functional. It will move but it has too much 'old' (rust mostly)on it to move freeley My thoughts are, it's running lean hence low'ish power. Internal carb 'issue' causing flooding on start-up but settles out (maybe bad float as many of you have said needs to be addressed, and the carb is bleeding/leaking internally after shutting it off???). Or.....maybe the fuel line is empty/boiling out of the carb and there's no fuel in the carb, hence no starty?, requiring the fuel line mod?? Hmmmmm..... Here's what I'm looking at doing. First off, I have a line on a used 2bbl set-up (that I'm trading for a set of 360 heads - a.k.a free ![]() What about ignition - I'm sure there is good, simple aftermarket upgrade that doesn't cost a ton, and I will keep searching these threads for it. Thoughts? So, I'm gonna do the 2bbl swap, but is there something else I should look at while it's apart? Trying to keep this very low buck, but I'm thinking most of my issues are carb-related. Thx, - Sam |
Author: | SlantSixDan [ Sun Jan 06, 2008 3:29 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
Quote:
- 1st fill up = 15.4 mpg
Again: Carb kit + new float + electric choke. - Low on power - Seems to be flooded on each start-up (requires full pedal to clear out, when fires there's black smoke out the pipe, then it settles down and runs) - When dead cold, fires and stays running after second key-turn (takes a few attempts to get its heart started...literally) - New NGK's are bone white - definitely not running rich...I'd even say lean - Exhaust pipe butterfly valve (below the carb base) seems to be nearly inop/non-functional. It will move but it has too much 'old' (rust mostly)on it to move freeley Quote: I'll do the 2bbl swap and rebuild the carb in the process.
Good. You'll still want the electric choke.Quote: I'd normally remove the heat valve completely and plug the hole.
Poor idea that'll gain you nothing and cost you mileage and driveability. Fix it so that it works correctly. The best solvent is Chrysler # 4318 039AB from the dealer.Quote: What about ignition
HEI upgrade, install a NAPA Echlin MO-3000 long-tip distributor rotor with Standard-Bluestreak CH410X cap and NGK ZFR5N plugs gapped to 0.045".
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Author: | Aggressive Ted [ Sun Jan 06, 2008 5:51 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
Mad Max, Follow Dan's advice on that electric choke mod. It will save you allot of frustration! Your mechanical choke is choking too much. I had to bend the push rod on mine to shorten it a little so it would be at the correct position and not slam shut again once it was started. It will get you by for now until the electric choke comes. That will take about 5 minutes to do and get you by, at least you can drive it around town and not have that problem any more. Nice car! |
Author: | Mad Max [ Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:18 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
Hmm, this is strange - it appears the choke may not be the hard-to-restart problem after all. After running errands today I got home, left the car running, opened the hood, removed the air cleaner top, then shut it off and watched for anything strange inside the carb...and found it ![]() So something is causing the carb to bleed to death internally...and it's bleeding out intot he intake...and making it super rich and it floods out...and after a couple moments of WOT on start-up it clears out and runs otherwise normally. Before I go install the 2bbl setup...it looks like I may have another problem that I need to address while it's all apart, ja? - Sam |
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