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Modern Alignment?
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Author:  Tuff68dodge [ Wed Jan 09, 2008 7:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Modern Alignment?
It is time to get an alignment on my 64 Dart GT with a slant. The car is my stress relief, and I drive it ever time I get a chance. Mostly I cruse around town, but do take some interstate highway trips. I have no handling problems, but I know it could be a little more stable when driving straight. Front suspension is original (27K original miles); no power steering or brakes. I replaced the original sagging rear springs, and adjusted the front ride height to the upper end of the factory spec to level the car. I also installed KYB gas shocks all around. I’m running new 21570R14 front, 23560R14 rears on SBP Rally Wheels. No rubs or issues with the rubber at all, rides super, and looks great.

I think I saw a small blurb in the back of the last issue of the Hemmings classic auto magazine addressing alignment specs for a classic autos running modern radial type tires that are often wider OEM bias rubber. I think the recommended additional caster among other things.

My alignment guy will set the car up any way I’d like. Does anyone have any experience or information they can provide on the subject?

Thanks much,

Scott
Author:  tophat [ Thu Jan 10, 2008 5:03 am ]
Post subject: 
Here is what I am running on my 63 Dart with P205/60/15 tires on the front.

Camber -.75 to -1.0 both sides
Caster 5.5 left 6.0 right ... to compensate for the road crown
Toe about 1/16" toe in total

I have no tire wear issues, and it handles very well.

I have manual steering and aftermarket adjustable UCA's. With factory UCA's you won't be able to get that much caster. Have him set the Camber and shoot for as much Caster as he can get. Have him (or you can do it) set your ride height where you want it FIRST. The closer you are to "factory" ride height, the more adjustment you should have with stock UCA's.

Even with that low of mileage I would have him carefully check your LCA bushings, especially the passengers side. Bushings don't like oil, and the pass side is almost under the oil filter so every oil change it most likely gets a bath in oil. Might be another reason to use a NAPA 1806 filter with the built in stand pipe. I am using that filter now but haven't changed it yet so I don't know how much it reduces the mess of changing the filter.

TopHat
Author:  Dart270 [ Thu Jan 10, 2008 6:28 am ]
Post subject: 
You should be able, with stock UCAs and bushings, to get around 1 deg pos caster, 0.25-0.5 neg camber, and 1/16" toe. That should work well. We are assuming all your front end parts are in perfect order.

Lou
Author:  Sam Powell [ Thu Jan 10, 2008 5:35 pm ]
Post subject: 
You have already improved your care significantly with the wider wheels and tires. Negative camber feels a little nicer in turns, and won't hurt your radials as long as you don;t over do it. I would go for between -.5 and -.75 if they can do that. My car is set up at -1 on both sides.

I was able to get 2.5 degrees of positive caster when I had the stock front end, and that gives it a firmer feel on the highway. My theory is that greater caster will reduce mileage a little since there is more rolling resistance on a curve. I think it is worth the compromise. Ask Dart270 how his road racing Dart and Valiant are set up. I think he hits maybe 125MPH in the back stretch. His ideas about suspension geometry are proven, and not just theories.

Sam
Author:  Rob Simmons [ Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:39 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
You should be able, with stock UCAs and bushings, to get around 1 deg pos caster, 0.25-0.5 neg camber, and 1/16" toe. That should work well. We are assuming all your front end parts are in perfect order.

Lou
Hey lou,
That doesn't sound like that much. When you say "work well" you are referring to regular handling on modern rubber, but nothing aggressive, right? Have you had any experience with the Moog off-set bushings? Any idea how much caster and camber they can provide with stock UCAs?

What set-up are you running on your road raced street cars? Didn't you move up to tubular UCAs and LCAs? What alignment settings are you using?

Sorry, I'm not trying to hi-jack this thread. I think my questions fit the topic of the thread(?)...
Author:  Tuff68dodge [ Sat Jan 12, 2008 6:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Modern Alignment?
Good stuff! Keep it coming guys!

I can't wait to get the front end set up and try it out!

Scott
Author:  Dart270 [ Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:28 am ]
Post subject: 
I am just recommending what I know will work with stock arms and sometimes you will hit the rims on the UCAs if you try for too much camber. Not a problem with 16" or bigger rims. I have not seen huge differences in handling with alignment specs, but they are noticeable.

You could have them try for 1.5 or 2 deg pos caster and see how they go. Steering effort at low speeds will go up a little, but not much.

I have gotten as much as 2 deg pos caster and 1 deg neg camber with stock arms. With the offset bushings (one backwards installed), you can get 5-6 deg pos caster and 1 deg neg camber or thereabouts. I have those on all my cars now - no tubulars yet. I may try some soon, but don't feel they are worth the money for no weight loss. UCAs do not carry much load. I have 3 deg pos caster and 1.25 neg camber on the Valiant, and 2.25 pos caster and 1 neg camber on the 64. Will probably go higher on the next alignment(s).

Lou
Author:  Rob Simmons [ Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:01 am ]
Post subject: 
Thanks Lou! Great information on what can be done with stock parts and/or just using the offset bushings in the rebuild.

I was considering tubular UCAs for my Dart, but I think I will just go with the offset bushings for now.

Hey Scott, Lou is definitely the guy I listen to when it comes to what will work for suspension stuff. His accomplishments with his A bodies are pretty impressive. Good luck with your project and let us know how it goes!
Author:  Sam Powell [ Mon Jan 14, 2008 4:29 am ]
Post subject: 
Your particular auto body, front stabilizer bushings, sub frame combination, and its condition will affect the results you will get with the Problem Solver UCA bushings. On this Dart, I could never get more than 2.5 degrees caster with the problems solvers installed with one reversed to maximize the caster. And yet, on my old Duster I was able to get 2.5 degrees with everything bone stock. If you have power steering, you might prefer the higher numbers on caster. The reason is more caster gives you more road feel, which is somewhat lacking on the Mopar power steering. I'm pretty sure all Lou's cars are manual steering. They provide more room under the hood, better road feel, and a serious reduction in weight.

I changed out the front strut braces for the solid units with no bushings. This improved braking enormously, but made the ride really stiff. I think I would go with polycarbonate front strut bushings were I to do it again. The old rubber stuff allows too much flex when you apply the brakes. Both sides need to react precisely the same way, and rubber will vary from application to application.

Also, I am a really big fan of the Edlebrock shock absorbers. They control the body better than stock, and yet improve the ride at the same time.


Sam
Author:  Dart270 [ Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:33 am ]
Post subject: 
I am also a huge fan of the Edelbrock shocks for street and handling.

Sam, If you ride got rougher, you might have the strut rods adjusted too tight, pulling the LCA forward and binding a bit?? I haven't done a lot of testing here, but just a thought. When I adjusted my heim jointed strut rods on Project V, they moved very freely over a wide range and it seems that shouldn't affect ride.

Lou
Author:  Sam Powell [ Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:00 am ]
Post subject: 
I'll check that out. I am begining to think about handling once again now that engine is working acceptably.

Sam
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