Slant *        6        Forum
Home Home Home
The Place to Go for Slant Six Info!
Click here to help support the Slant Six Forum!
It is currently Tue Feb 18, 2025 6:49 pm

All times are UTC-08:00




Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 69 posts ]  Go to page 1 2 3 4 5 Next
Author Message
 Post subject: More NGK plug questions.
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:35 pm 
Offline
Supercharged

Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2006 4:53 pm
Posts: 4295
Location: Gaithersburg MD
Car Model:
I went to NAPA and bought the NGK ZFR5N plugs, per Dan's suggestions. I asked for the colder plug, which would have been a ZFR6N, and they did not list it. Does anyone know for a fact that it is made? I decided the 5n was better than the old stock plugs, so will start with that in my tuning efforts, and maybe upgrade to the colder plug if preignition is still a problem. All that is holding me back now is a new mounting flange for the inter cooler.
Sam

_________________
Image


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 2:20 pm 
Offline
Board Sponsor
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 01, 2002 8:20 pm
Posts: 1603
Location: Oxford, Georgia
Car Model:
I'm using part number ZFR6F-11 on my Dart. One range colder, but the nose isn't extended quite as far into the chamber.

_________________
"Mad Scientist" Matt Cramer
'66 Dart - turbocharged 225
My blog - Mad Scientist Matt's Lair


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 3:32 pm 
Offline
Supercharged
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2004 8:03 pm
Posts: 9627
Location: IRWIN PA
Car Model:
In addition to this site - I do a lot of spark plug Fact checking @ sparkplugs.com - If your local parts man cant' get em this place probably can - Just pay a little Extra$


Greg

_________________
http://www.youtube.com/hyperpack
Image


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 2:21 pm 
Offline
3 Deuce Weber

Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 12:15 pm
Posts: 97
Location: small town alberta, canada
Car Model:
Just something i found out to get a little added performance, for those of us who can't afford nitrous. Making sure the vehicle is hitting on all the cylinders it was built with helps.

I discovered platinum spark plugs for my vehicles a number of years ago. Have them in a 1973 plymouth fury (318), a 1986 pontiac parisienne station wagon(305) and a 1984 dodge ram half ton van (225). A real difference compared to the copper ect. spark plug for take-off speed and general highway power, and last alot longer. All three of mine have alot of miles on them (station wagon=270,000 + kilometers) and still run nice with these platinums in them. Worth the difference in price. Put a set in my sister's 1987 suburban (350) and it pushes you into the seat whenever you hit the gas...at 50 miles an hour. Not bad for a three-quarter ton "truck".

_________________
If at first you don't succeed, don't try skydiving.

Image
1984 dodge /6 with Lady, Evony and Breeze


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 2:37 pm 
Offline
Board Sponsor & Contributor

Joined: Thu Oct 31, 2002 5:39 pm
Posts: 24512
Location: North America
Car Model:
Platinum-tipped spark plugs do not affect engine performance unless they are Bosch platinums, in which case they make it worse when (not if) the plugs fail physically. The only advantage to platinum-tipped spark plugs is longer electrode life.

_________________
一期一会
Too many people who were born on third base actually believe they've hit a triple.

Image


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 4:35 pm 
Offline
Supercharged
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 5:09 pm
Posts: 2946
Location: Gilbert, Arizona
Car Model: 1962 Plymouth Valiant Signet
One of the earliest uses of platinum tipped spark plugs was on Mopar B-body cars with the big block V8 engine. the #7 plug was impossible to change without unbolting and lifting the engine. Platinum plugs were used to reduce the need for frequent plug changes.

_________________
David Kight
'62 Valiant Signet, White
'98 Dodge Dakota
'06 Jeep Liberty

Growing older is unavoidable but growing up is strictly optional.


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 6:17 pm 
Offline
3 Deuce Weber
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 6:27 pm
Posts: 65
Car Model:
Just bypass the platinums and drop some serious cash on a set of NGK or better yet: Denso Iridiums (they are an actual performance plug). I've yet to install them on my S6 van mostly casue I'm a cheap bastard, but have used them in various older and newer motorcycles (points, magneto, various electronic ignitions etc) with excellent performance results....and by performance I don't mean "more horsepower" (most should know that a spark plug does not make horsepower, it can limit it yes, but make horsepower? no)...by performance I mean quicker starting, smoother consistant idle, faster crisper/snappy throttle response, as well as longer plug life, iridiums clearly out perform standard (as well as platinum to a lesser extent) plugs in these areas. Has anyone tried them yet? I know they will work beautifully on a points ignition, as well as on the typical electronic ignition based on my experiences with them on mc's....a slant six is rather rudimentary compared to the latest motorcycle engines so I feel confident they would be better, but I'd like to hear from those who actually have used them and not from any doubters :roll: that have'nt tried them........Anyone?


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 7:21 pm 
Offline
Board Sponsor & Contributor

Joined: Thu Oct 31, 2002 5:39 pm
Posts: 24512
Location: North America
Car Model:
Quote:
Just bypass the platinums and drop some serious cash on a set of NGK or better yet: Denso Iridiums
At $7 to $12 per plug, they are grossly cost-ineffective for use in a slant-6, even if they offered a performance benefit in a slant-6, which they wouldn't.
Quote:
iridiums clearly out perform standard
Betchya can't prove it on a dyno.

_________________
一期一会
Too many people who were born on third base actually believe they've hit a triple.

Image


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 3:48 am 
Offline
3 Deuce Weber
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 6:27 pm
Posts: 65
Car Model:
Dan,

You mention that they would'nt offer a performance benefit? What brand and plug# of iridiums have you used on the slants or other engines?
No offense, but I knew there would be someone who would mention the "Dyno" issue. Happens all the time when discussing these plugs. Theres clearly two camps: ardent doubters/cynics and believers. The doubters claim that the believers are dreaming or wishful thinkers, that it's all b.s.....that it's all in the head and not possible...they'll go to their grave believing this. And they always mention the dyno. It's the equivalant to beating a dead horse for someone with actual proof trying to tell someone that something does in fact work. While I won't question your knowledge in general (I wonder if you've ever tried these plugs though) I clearly stated that there is no HP increase....and neither of these type plugs claim to increase HP by the way, so there's no need for any dyno. And a dyno won't show that there is better throttle response, better idle , and starting. But, those three areas, as well as longevity, are part of "performance" in my book.
The NGK's are around $7 at Advance Auto so that's about $45 w/tax. That's not much money I believe....many spend/waste much more on stuff that give smaller benefit or none at all, looking for more performance or horsepower. Alot of it all crap or marketing hype too I might add.

I'll just assume that you think these plugs are pure marketing (other than offering longer life) Your probably in the majority, a majority of those who've never tried them? Lump 'em in with the Turbulator!! :shock:


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 4:44 am 
Offline
Supercharged

Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2006 4:53 pm
Posts: 4295
Location: Gaithersburg MD
Car Model:
I got my NGK's for $15 total at NAPA. :)

Sam

_________________
Image


Top
   
 Post subject: At sea plugwise
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 6:32 am 
Offline
Turbo Slant 6

Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 7:44 pm
Posts: 790
Location: New England
Car Model:
I'm swapping a newer /6 (1975)into my 67 a-body. Do those NGK ZFR5N plugs work in the spark-tubeless models, or are they the long reach variety? What is the story on the electrode length issue. Is a planed head a factor? I notice an earlier thread mentioned NGK UR4. What works? W/ super six and a little bigger cam.

_________________
/6 '67 Barracuda convertible, electronic ignition, 4-OD, street cam, SBP KH discs, 3.55 SG 7.25" 1" t-bars. Bilstein.
340 '67 fastback, Doug Nash 5-speed.
1988 Toyota pickup work truck


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 7:24 am 
Offline
Turbo EFI
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2005 1:50 pm
Posts: 2353
Location: Pertneer Nashville TN
Car Model:
IIRC platinum is just lower resistance. I used them in a '87 Toyota 22R truck. No difference from stock. They may be a bandaid for a weak ignition system.

Those Bosch with 2 and 4 tips are laughable! The spark is going to jump the shortest distance! So I guess the other 3 are there to reduce cylinder volume and raise compression :lol:

I have used Champion "truck plugs" in my van. Another waste of money. The black insulator is pretty but you can't see it inside the dog house.

Unless your ignition is designed for platninum chances are you are wasting your money. I just bought some for the PT because that is all you can buy, and that is what the factory designed the ignition for.

I remember "Split Fire" plugs advertised for years in JC Whitney. I think NGK sells their version of them too. Do they work? I don't know. I think a friend uses them on his 440 powered 13.3:1 racecar.

Maybe he needs a bigger spark kernel to keep the flame from being snuffed out from the compression?

If you want more performance open up the gap a little. Go .037-.040. It will be harder on your stock ignition. Get a copper contact rotor cap with a brass tipped rotor. I just priced a set at
Advanced Auto for $22 for the set. I might take a couple days to get it. Most caps have aluminum contacts. Everyone knows that is crap! :(

_________________
'72 Duster 198 stock cam, 3:23's Hookers on jack stands for 8 years in the driveway
'79 Maxivan 360 Offy Qjet Comp RV cam/rusting in the driveway.
93 D350 160HP Cummins Auto :-( Dually Clubcab needs a injector pump
2005 Golden Couch Buick


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 7:27 am 
Offline
Board Sponsor & Contributor

Joined: Thu Oct 31, 2002 5:39 pm
Posts: 24512
Location: North America
Car Model:
Quote:
Dan, You mention that they would'nt offer a performance benefit?
Right. For any given gap, the fine-wire centre electrode lowers firing voltage requirements across the lifespan of the plug, and that's good, but doesn't translate to better performance except in situations where standard plugs' firing voltage requirements exceed the capabilities of the ignition system, which only occurs in cases of weak ignition systems and/or extremely high combustion chamber pressures. Neither is found in most slant-6 engines. Of course, we can also keep the firing voltage constant relative to standard plugs if we open the gap on the Iridium plugs, and wider gaps can improve driveability, but we hit the limit above which there's no improvement pretty quickly. Much above 0.045", and the benefit levels off; around 0.050" you're starting to work against yourself unless you've got a distributorless ignition system.
Quote:
What brand and plug# of iridiums have you used on the slants or other engines?
NGKs, in a 225 and a 2.2 turbo and a 2.5 TBI and a 318 and a Volvo B230 over the years. They worked fine, the engines started and ran normally. Back to back emission tests on the 225, the 318 and the 2.5 with new NGK Iridiums and new standard plugs gave essentially identical results, and since (on the 225 at least) there was no catalytic converter gobbling up CO and HC, that's a reliable indication the Iridium plugs weren't producing any significant improvement in combustion. The emission test on the same day in the same bay with the extended-electrode NGKs (the ZFR5Ns I'm always
babbling about), on the other hand, did show a drop in CO and HC, indicating more complete combustion. (In case you're wondering, no, I didn't shell out $24 for each of six emission tests just to satisfy my curiosity. A friend of mine worked at an emission testing station, and after hours we did "unofficial" tests, wherein the normal test protocol is used, but the results are not reported to the central computer).
Quote:
I knew there would be someone who would mention the "Dyno" issue.
That's 'cause facts and data trump guesses and opinions.
Quote:
Theres clearly two camps: ardent doubters/cynics and believers.
Dude, we're talkin' spark plugs, here, not religion and beliefs. The laws of physics apply, whether you or I or anyone else "believes" in them. Either a particular spark plug really improves combustion, or it doesn't. There is no magic spark plug! :-) OK, you've tried these plugs and say they work better. That's good, but it's not good enough. Not because I think you're a liar (I don't), and not because I necessarily distrust you (I don't), but because of simple human psychology. We humans are very poorly equipped to perceive patterns and phenomena accurately just based on what we see (or think we see, or want to see). That's why scientists and engineers base their research on data. The Slick-50 effect is very real ("Of course my engine runs smoother and better and I get more mileage and have more power; I just spent $39.99 on a bottle of Slick-50!"). Substitute spark plugs, headlight bulbs, etc. etc. and the effect still holds.
Quote:
And a dyno won't show that there is better throttle response, better idle , and starting.
There are controlled, scientific tests that can be done for all of these aspects of performance you say are invisible to a dyno, but an emission test is a pretty good proxy for all of them. The only way spark plugs can improve starting, throttle response, and idle is by allowing more complete combustion. If there's more complete combustion, there'll be less CO and HC in the exhaust. There'll also be more power, visible on a dyno.
Quote:
I'll just assume that you think these plugs are pure marketing
Why assume anything? Why not just ask me? :lol: The NGK Iridium plugs are very well made indeed, and they last a very long time due to the ultrahard electrode metal, and if my priority were ultra long spark plug service life, I'd probably use them. If NGK were to make an Iridium version of the extended-electrode plug, I'd almost certainly use them. But when my tests show that moving the spark plug electrodes further into the combustion chamber (w/the extended-electrode plugs) gives measurable improvements not shown with other "different than stock" spark plugs, and the extended-electrode plugs cost under $2 apiece and themselves have a nice long life, that pretty much wraps up the question of which "different than stock" spark plug is most cost-effective...for me, in my applications. Your applications and cost-effectiveness calculations may well vary.

_________________
一期一会
Too many people who were born on third base actually believe they've hit a triple.

Image


Last edited by SlantSixDan on Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
   
 Post subject: Re: At sea plugwise
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:02 am 
Offline
Board Sponsor & Contributor

Joined: Thu Oct 31, 2002 5:39 pm
Posts: 24512
Location: North America
Car Model:
Quote:
I'm swapping a newer /6 (1975)into my 67 a-body. Do those NGK ZFR5N plugs work in the spark-tubeless models, or are they the long reach variety? What is the story on the electrode length issue. Is a planed head a factor? I notice an earlier thread mentioned NGK UR4. What works? W/ super six and a little bigger cam.
Nope, can't use ZFR5N in the '75-up heads without plug tubes. DusterIdiot said he'd found a P/N for the extended-electrode plugs in the taper-seat design, but so far no P/N from him. NGK UR4 would be the stock replacement for the '75-up heads, but if you need a slightly colder plug, use UR5 instead. If you want the Iridium plugs mentioned above, it's UR4IX (or UR5IX for a slightly colder one). If you want platinum, it's UR4GP (or UR5GP for slightly colder).

My preference is for NGK-made plugs. I've had decent results with Autolite, and I will never touch a Champion or Bosch plug again. Others' brand preferences differ.

_________________
一期一会
Too many people who were born on third base actually believe they've hit a triple.

Image


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:14 am 
Offline
Board Sponsor & Contributor

Joined: Thu Oct 31, 2002 5:39 pm
Posts: 24512
Location: North America
Car Model:
Quote:
IIRC platinum is just lower resistance.
Well, it's physically harder than copper-nickel alloy, so it lasts longer...if the electrodes are well designed. In stupid designs like Bosch uses, the hardness of the Pt doesn't really matter 'cause the design itself makes problems.
Quote:
Those Bosch with 2 and 4 tips are laughable! The spark is going to jump the shortest distance! So I guess the other 3 are there to reduce cylinder volume and raise compression :lol:
Naw, the other 1 or 3 are there to raise more money for Bosch! :shock: You're right, they're laughable, but despite most people swearing they're not influenced by advertising, we all are, and most people don't know any better than to swallow the hype. See also Splitfire spark plugs, PIAA headlight bulbs, etc.
Quote:
I have used Champion "truck plugs" in my van. Another waste of money.
Yup. And I used Champion H.O.T. ("High Output Technology") plugs once when they were announced with much fanfare. Cost me a great deal of money and time to fix the resultant damage.
Quote:
Unless your ignition is designed for platninum chances are you are wasting your money.
Right, there are some engine/ignition system configurations that need platinum plugs to get acceptable spark plug service life. Without such a configuration, if there are no other plug availability factors at work, it's just a choice of whether you want to install less-costly plugs more often, or more-costly plugs less often.
Quote:
I remember "Split Fire" plugs advertised for years in JC Whitney.
JC Witless sold "Fire Injectors" ("Run your car without spark plugs! Install amazing new fire injectors instead!"). They were BS. So are Splitfires.
Quote:
I think NGK sells their version of them too.
NGK cut a V-groove in their centre electrodes. Not the same thing.
Quote:
Maybe he needs a bigger spark kernel to keep the flame from being snuffed out from the compression?
If he does, he's not getting it from Splitfires.
Quote:
If you want more performance open up the gap a little. Go .037-.040. It will be harder on your stock ignition. Get a copper contact rotor cap with a brass tipped rotor.
More specifically, get a Standard-Bluestreak CH-410X cap and a NAPA Echlin long-tip rotor # MO-3000. This rotor has a brass tip 0.060" longer than stock, so you can open up the plug gap a little and still have the same total effective secondary gap. The Standard-Bluestreak rotor has an extra-short brass tip! :shock:

_________________
一期一会
Too many people who were born on third base actually believe they've hit a triple.

Image


Last edited by SlantSixDan on Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:50 am, edited 2 times in total.

Top
   
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 69 posts ]  Go to page 1 2 3 4 5 Next

All times are UTC-08:00


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: eric22t, Google [Bot], Semrush [Bot] and 8 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Limited