I hear you Matt, I recently got chided as the only guy who puts smog equipment back under the hood of a car where most guys are trying the throw the stuff away...
-D.Idiot
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| What if I wanted more smog equipment? https://slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=28238 |
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| Author: | Matt Cramer [ Sat Apr 05, 2008 6:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | What if I wanted more smog equipment? |
Maybe it's because I'm a bit of a contrarian, maybe it's because I've already been using a Lean Burn distributor as a performance upgrade, but I've started to ponder if I could put more emissions control equipment on my Dart. Maybe the real reason is just research into whether it's possible to get an older car to be both more powerful and cleaner running, or to demonstrate that hot rodders aren't always environmental hooligans out to destroy their smog equipment. Or maybe it's for the challenge. I've probably got some mixture of all these motivations. I've got enough other things to worry about that this won't happen for some time. The Dart already has kept the factory PCV system (which now opens to the pre-turbo plumbing). I've converted it to fuel injection and computerized spark control. What I would probably install would be an evaporative emissions control system like a charcoal canister. Maybe add a three-way cat too - this would probably be for some sort of dyno test, although these would be expensive enough in sizes appropriate for my target power it's not likely I would do this for a long time and unless I had some money to burn (or made it some sort of work related project). Any thoughts on plumbing up a charcoal canister for an injected car that never had such a thing on it? |
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| Author: | LUCKY13 [ Sat Apr 05, 2008 6:56 pm ] |
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Although I to like to try and get my ride as clean burning as possible, I don't see how a canister could be helpfulll. I mean what would you run through it, there is no open gas ( like in a carb bowl) to be pulling vapors from it. Maybe pulling the fumes off the gas tank and burning them. I guess the fumes out of the crankcase could be run through it, but a properly built engine would not need that. Using a good high flowing cat could be a big help, and with some of todays cats it could even be done without performance loose (to a point). I think the cat, and a improve combustion chamber could do the most for emmisions on the slant. A improved combustion chamber may sound like something we cant have but it can be done and I know of the right guy to get it done with. Piston design and ring placement can really effect combustion emmisions. By your post I am not really sure what your after but a little more detail might help. With all the attack's on HotRodders from the tree huggers its not going to hurt to so called, clean up our act a little. They just can't have any of my performance in doing so. Jess |
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| Author: | DusterIdiot [ Sat Apr 05, 2008 7:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Lol... |
I hear you Matt, I recently got chided as the only guy who puts smog equipment back under the hood of a car where most guys are trying the throw the stuff away... -D.Idiot |
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| Author: | Joshie225 [ Sat Apr 05, 2008 11:17 pm ] |
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The vapor canister is easy. The hard part of it will be extending a fuel tank vent line from the tank to the canister. A catalytic converter will clean things up a lot, but then you have to tune for stoichiometric rather than a lean economical cruise. |
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| Author: | SlantSixDan [ Sun Apr 06, 2008 4:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What if I wanted more smog equipment? |
Quote: I've started to ponder if I could put more emissions control equipment on my Dart.
Certainly you could. If it's done in a thoughtful and coördinated fashion, you'll see various benefits.Quote: I've converted it to fuel injection and computerized spark control.
That's an excellent start...Quote: What I would probably install would be an evaporative emissions control system like a charcoal canister.
This isn't difficult to do at all. Don't know what year your Dart is — that will determine what mods need to be made to the fuel tank vent to accommodate a canister. You'd build a control/purge system with a purge control valve and, depending on what you're using for a throttle body, one of several methods of applying vacuum to the canister only above idle.Quote: Maybe add a three-way cat
Meow? Oh, the other kind of cat. Pointless with a carburetor, but you've got EFI, so you could definitely add a 3-way converter. You'd need to add an O2 sensor (what kind of exhaust manifold/s or header/s are you running?) and program your EFI controller to look at it.
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| Author: | Matt Cramer [ Sun Apr 06, 2008 6:31 am ] |
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It's a '66. So basically the charcoal canister would go on the fuel tank vent line, with a purge line that vents through a solenoid downstream of the throttle body when my MAP sensor reads vacuum? That wouldn't be too hard to rig up. Right now I'm running a stock-type manifold with a flexible downpipe connected to a turbo. There's an Innovate wideband oxygen sensor system already on the car for closed loop feedback. |
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| Author: | SlantSixDan [ Sun Apr 06, 2008 6:42 am ] |
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Quote: It's a '66. So basically the charcoal canister would go on the fuel tank vent line, with a purge line that vents through a solenoid downstream of the throttle body when my MAP sensor reads vacuum?
Well...no. The MAP sensor will read vacuum whenever the engine's running. You'd want a line from the tank vent to the "TANK" port of the canister — probably with a rollover valve in it to prevent liquid fuel going where it shouldn't ought to. Then you'd have a line from the canister's "PURGE" port to a purge valve, and from the purge valve to a tee fitting installed in the PCV hose. Triggering the purge valve would require vacuum when (and only when) the throttle was opened beyond the idle position. If you're using any kind of stock carburetor-type throttle body and still have a ported vacuum source originally for distributor vacuum advance, that'll do. If not, you'll need to rig up an idle switch (opens when throttle's at idle, closes all other times — a simple lever switch or any of several other types can be used), and use that switch to control a vacuum solenoid placed in series with the purge valve trigger port. Make sure it is a solenoid that vents the downstream line to atmosphere when it's in the off (closed) position, so the purge valve can close rather than being held open by residual vacuum when the solenoid closes. You will get much better results (and much less stinky exhaust) if you'll run an air pump. This, too, is not hard to rig up and steals almost zero power from your engine. |
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| Author: | Matt Cramer [ Sun Apr 06, 2008 7:13 am ] |
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Ok, looks like I misread your post. With my setup it would probably be easiest to use the throttle position sensor to detect when the engine is above idle, rather than a switch (I'm using a Ford 4.6 modular motor throttle body). However, there's not much room for a smog pump with the turbo setup. |
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| Author: | Sam Powell [ Sun Apr 06, 2008 7:35 am ] |
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Jess, there are two points to the charcoal canister: one is to put few gas fumes into the air from the gas tank evaporation, which is significant, and the other is to keep the smell of gasoline down. I had a 6 inch section of filler pipe expanded where it goes into the tank using an exhaust pipe "bump out" tool, and then welded into the tank itself, to eliminate the questionable seal there. The filler tube is then to be connected to the welded part with a nitrile tube hose section and hose clamps. This will be easier to install, and more securely sealed then the stock set up. From 72 and up A body , Mopar eliminated the vent in the filler tube, so I have a 72 filler tube. I will order our friend's (Damon?) sealing billet cap to top it off. I have started with a '72 and up tank which has the four corner vent tube set up. I am connecting these to a small brass manifold up in the trunk, and from there will route it to a charcoal canister under the hood. This will be triggered for purging by the purge solenoid gotten from a 90's junkyard minivan. I have had some system like this in operation on my Dart for years. I had to remove it when I put the surge tank in, for space reasons. But it will go back when the new tank goes in, and the surge tank goes away. I applaud, and share your concern. When you go turbo, you could likely get away with a cat, and no muffler. I have no mufflers now, and it is quieter than many performance V-8s with performance "mufflers". Do the cats work if they are that far downstream? Sam |
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| Author: | SlantSixDan [ Sun Apr 06, 2008 8:04 am ] |
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The cat (meow!) wants to be as close as possible to the engine. They really need to get — and stay — hot, hot, hot to work efficiently. It's also good to use Thermo-Tec wrap on the headpipe to minimise heat loss before the catalyst. |
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| Author: | Jopapa [ Sun Apr 06, 2008 8:51 am ] |
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That reminds me, I need to get a new charcoal canister. Two of the hose nipples are broken off on mine... |
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| Author: | Aggressive Ted [ Sun Apr 06, 2008 10:00 am ] |
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Jopapa, Let me know where you find one. Thanks! |
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| Author: | DusterIdiot [ Sun Apr 06, 2008 12:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Lol... |
I have a couple used ones stored away, I know the local pick a part just got a '76 Volare with one in it, usually these need a new filter that never gets replaced by the previous owners... in some cases the charcoal finally gives up the ghost and gets in the fuel system... -D.Idiot |
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| Author: | Aggressive Ted [ Sun Apr 06, 2008 5:21 pm ] |
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Who sells filters and charcoal? I have found a few old ones too, but no new ones. Thanks, |
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| Author: | Sam Powell [ Sun Apr 06, 2008 7:06 pm ] |
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Couldn't you use a charcoal canister from a later model car? Both my Minivans had one. Sam |
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