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Having problems setting the timing
https://slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=33481		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  kenicb [ Sat Jan 24, 2009 5:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Having problems setting the timing
I installed new piston rings and bearings. And replaced the head.
Set the valve lash accordingly. Reassembled the super 6 set up. Got the car started and running. Idling high at 1000 rpms was the best i could get before stalling out.

the engine is over heating as well. Factory manual troubleshooting suggests timing should be checked. At 1000 rpms the timing was landing at aprx 20 degrees BTDC. I could not rotate the distributor enough to get the timing to line up with TDC. The mounting plate would not allow for any more rotation.

1 If i re-install the distributor how can I realign it to allow for proper rotation?
2 Should i be able to get a better idle even if the timing is off?

3 is the bad timing affecting the idle?


what next?

Thank you so much.
Author:  THOR [ Sat Jan 24, 2009 5:40 pm ]
Post subject: 
What vacuum are you pulling at the lowest RPM the car will idle at?

~THOR~
Author:  rosie [ Sat Jan 24, 2009 5:44 pm ]
Post subject: 
20 degrees is about where my truck jumps with acceleration pulling on the vacuum advance.Make sure the advance is disconnected when setting timing and that its not hooked up to the wrong port. The advance will definately cause the high idle.It might work to move the wires one tower before re dropping the dist.
Author:  Reed [ Sat Jan 24, 2009 7:18 pm ]
Post subject: 
Sounds like:

(1) vacuum leak
(2) air pocket in the block/head causing overheating
(3) valves need adjusting
(4) timing needs adjustment
Author:  SlantSixDan [ Sat Jan 24, 2009 8:12 pm ]
Post subject: 
The timing cannot be set until the idle speed is set correctly, so we will need to figure out what is causing the high idle. Are you sure all the vacuum lines are hooked up correctly, especially the PCV? What did you do to block off the EGR on the Super Six intake? And are you sure the throttle cable is not adjusted too far back, preventing the throttle from closing completely? Are you sure the choke isn't hanging partly closed, so the fast-idle cam isn't retracting? Remind us, please, what carburetor you're running.

Once the idle speed is under control (closer to 700 rpm for a start), you can address the timing. It gets checked with the vacuum advance hose disconnected and the carburetor end of it plugged. Optimal initial timing depends on which (exact) distributor you're running, but start with about 5° BTDC. If you cannot get there from here, note that the distributor hold-down plate which anchors the distributor to the block is itself anchored to the distributor body with another bolt, in another slotted hole. This second bolt can be loosened and the hold-down plate moved relative to the distributor body, so you can get the timing adjustment you need. The easiest way to do this is with a slant-6 distributor wrench (VIM V-103) but if you don't have one and need to do the job right now, then you'll have to cobble up a makeshift 7/16" Z-shaped wrench or pull the distributor to get access to the plate bolt on the underside.

Rotating the plug wires one tower clockwise (or the distributor one tooth clockwise) may or may not be a wise idea to try. Is this the same distributor that was in the car before? And, did you check to make sure the timing mark indicates actual/true TDC?

The overheating issue could be any of many things. Not enough info to guess effectively. What thermostat is in place, did you pan-test it before installation, and are you sure it's installed correctly? What is the status of the radiator? Does it overheat just sitting and idling, or under some other condition? What indication(s) do you have of overheating?
Author:  kenicb [ Tue Feb 03, 2009 6:24 pm ]
Post subject:  re: having trouble setting the timing
Quote:
The timing cannot be set until the idle speed is set correctly, so we will need to figure out what is causing the high idle.
thanks Dan.
I have two of your Carter BBDs. to eliminate the possibility of the carb being faulty i switched carbs. also put new gaskets and resealed where the manifolds come together. I had found a small exhaust leak. Plugged all openings of the carb. dbl chked placement of all tubes. Also pulled off that electric choke we talked about a while ago and replaced the old one. It helped. Once the choke let off, Got the car idling to around a managable 800. The timing was MUCH better at that idle. about 13 BTDC. Re-adjusted the valves accordingly. It idles better but still will not sustain it for more than 5 mins. after five mins it dies.

took it out for a road test runs good at 70. when you slow down it will stall. so you have to shift it to Neutral and keep pumping it to keep it going.

I've checked for vacuum leaks at the carb and around the manifolds. I'm in need of more options now.

the engine overheating was due to an insufficient thermostat not opening enough. that is fixed.

what do you suggest next?
Author:  SlantSixDan [ Tue Feb 03, 2009 9:37 pm ]
Post subject: 
Checking the cam timing.
Author:  kenicb [ Sat Feb 07, 2009 4:12 pm ]
Post subject:  i think i blew it up
well with all your help I got it idling properly. The problem seemed to be two fold 1) a slight vacuum leak in the carb. I tightend all the bolts that sandwich the gaskets. And it went away. 2) problem at the pcv valve. dissconnected the pcv tube from the carb and capped the opening. I let the pcv vent into the open air until i could replace the valve. Car idled well finally.

test drive is going well. oil light comes on. I pull over, add a 1/2 quart.
turn back to home. oil light comes on again. I begin to hear slight knocking (not pinging) from the engine. Pull over and add the other 1/2 quart. Thats when I realized the oil pan drain plug is gone.

I plugged the hole with my sock and slowly drove it home. About 2 miles with little oil in the engine. By now the knocking has obviously increased from slight to loud. Bought a new plug. Added oil and the knock is still there to stay.
Manual shows my possible causes for connecting rod or main bearing noises;
-low oil pressure
-excessive bearing clearance
-connecting rod out of round
-misaligend connecting rods
-excessive end play
-crankshaft journal out of round
-loose flywheel or torque converter

since we know the cause was the oil gone, where would you suggest I check first? I'm gonna have to pull this engine again arn't I?
Author:  SlantSixDan [ Sat Feb 07, 2009 4:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: i think i blew it up
Quote:
well with all your help I got it idling properly. The problem seemed to be two fold 1) a slight vacuum leak in the carb. I tightend all the bolts that sandwich the gaskets.
When working with BBDs, remember there are also screws going up from the bottom of the throttle body into the main body casting, which if loose can cause vacuum leak.
Quote:
the oil pan drain plug is gone. I plugged the hole with my sock and slowly drove it home. About 2 miles with little oil in the engine. By now the knocking has obviously increased from slight to loud. Bought a new plug. Added oil and the knock is still there to stay.
Oops…yeah, putting in a sock and driving it home without any oil in it, then buying a new plug, was sort of like closing the barn door after the horse has bolted. :-(
Quote:
since we know the cause was the oil gone, where would you suggest I check first? I'm gonna have to pull this engine again arn't I?
Yup. You're going to need some bearings and, depending on the extent of the damage, you may be looking at grinding and polishing the crank to use undersize bearings. You'll also need to suspect the rings and cylinder wall finish.

The "OIL" light is a big, bright, red one for a reason: it means STOP RIGHT NOW OR LOSE YOUR ENGINE.
Author:  emsvitil [ Sat Feb 07, 2009 5:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: i think i blew it up
Quote:
The "OIL" light is a big, bright, red one for a reason: it means STOP RIGHT NOW OR LOSE YOUR ENGINE.

You're ok if you use duralube........

:twisted:
Author:  kenicb [ Sat Feb 07, 2009 6:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: i think i blew it up
Quote:
Oops…yeah, putting in a sock and driving it home without any oil in it, then buying a new plug, was sort of like closing the barn door after the horse has bolted. :-(.
wished I had a horse. I could have ridden it home. when you live out where I live, there's no one to come get you.
Quote:
Yup. You're going to need some bearings and, depending on the extent of the damage, you may be looking at grinding and polishing the crank to use undersize bearings. You'll also need to suspect the rings and cylinder wall finish.?
bearings i can do. i got an extra set with the new rings i just put in. this time though, instead of working from under the car, I'm pulling the whole thing out. there's a farmer down the road with an engine stand and hoist.
good news is I know how to do it all now. except the grinding of the crank. that sounds like a pain. Hey what makes the noise when bearings get burnt up like this?

I'll hit you up later Dan da man. stay motivated. thanks for all your help

Keni
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