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To rebuild or not
https://slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=35965
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Author:  Dave95693 [ Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:49 am ]
Post subject:  To rebuild or not

My 71 Demon has a 225 that I have completely tuned up and adjusted. I have no way of telling how many miles it may have on it. I recently put in an oil pressure gauge. When hot, the oil pressure runs from 12psi at idle to 50psi above 1500rpm. This motor uses about 1 quart of oil per tank of gas. It does not smoke except sometimes when it is cold. There are no detectable leaks of fluid. I have considered rebuilding the head as I believe the valve stems may be at fault. If I do rebuild the head, I would mill it .050 and put the bigger valves in. However, I am leary at the thought of putting a new head on an older block as I have had bad results before...not on a Dodge, but other cars. Would you guys take the chance or wait until winter to rebuild the entire motor?

Author:  SlantSixDan [ Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: To rebuild or not

Quote:
My 71 Demon has a 225 that I have completely tuned up and adjusted. I have no way of telling how many miles it may have on it. I recently put in an oil pressure gauge. When hot, the oil pressure runs from 12psi at idle to 50psi above 1500rpm.
Not too bad. You will want to service the oil pressure relief valve to make sure it's doing its job, as described in these two threads: thread 1, thread 2.
Quote:
This motor uses about 1 quart of oil per tank of gas.
That's grossly excessive oil consumption. What type of oil are you using? Did you install new spark plug tube seals when you tuned up the engine? Is your PCV system working completely correctly? Are ya sure?
Quote:
It does not smoke except sometimes when it is cold.
What kind (colour) of smoke, and how much, when cold? You'd have giant clouds of thick blue smoke following you wherever you drove, cold or warm, if you were burning enough oil to need a quart per gas fill-up. It's gotta be leaking.
Quote:
There are no detectable leaks of fluid.
Ah, but there may well be some undetectable ones. There are many points from which oil can drip while you're driving, without creating a telltale oily mess. You may want to try a closer inspection by cleaning the engine thoroughly with engine degreaser, adding UV-fluorescent dye to the oil, driving for half a tank of fuel, then shining a UV light all over the engine. Even the smallest evidence of a leak will shine brilliant yellow under the UV light. See here and here for more info.
Quote:
I have considered rebuilding the head as I believe the valve stems may be at fault.
You're right to hesitate. Putting a nice tight head over a worn-but-working bottom end will often finish off the bottom end and turn the engine into a giant oil burner.

Author:  Rug_Trucker [ Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:43 am ]
Post subject: 

If it is a daily driver I would procure another engine and do a complete rebuild. Design it the way you are going to drive it.

Author:  Dave95693 [ Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:01 am ]
Post subject:  All good advice.

Smoke is white when it is cold but not too much smoke. Spark plug tubes may be an issue. I use 20-50w Castrol oil.

You have convinced me to wait until the race season is over and rebuild the entire motor. It is obviously a good old motor with that oil pressure but I have experienced a head rebuild (on a Vega) that burned more oil after the head was done than before. It looked like a fogger machine when pulling away from the stop light.

So...I will look for leaks, fix those and rebuild this coming October.

Thanks all! :)

Author:  Rug_Trucker [ Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:01 pm ]
Post subject: 

Vega? Aluminum cylinder walls..................... :lol: Overheat once and it became a skeeter fogger!

Author:  Dave95693 [ Wed Jun 24, 2009 12:38 pm ]
Post subject: 

LOL...that is exactly what happened. It would build up so much oil in the cylinder at idle, that when you took off, there would be this huge cloud of white smoke. The poor guy in back of me at any light couldn't even see the road. :lol: Now that I think about it, I could have had a lot of fun with that car but fortunately it was a clients who refused to listen to my plea to rebuild to entire motor or leave it alone.

Author:  rock [ Wed Jun 24, 2009 7:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Dave, that .050 "feels" like a guess..why not .100

Dave,

I personally wouldn't waste time and money on .050. If part of a plan, well...but planning will show you these heads easily do .100 and still keep relatively low compression ratios. Wait til you pull the head, measure how far down the pistons are, cc the head and THEN decide what to take off. I can run stock solid lifters, rods and stock adjustable rockers with .100. A good Aussie head gasket is pretty thick.

rock
'64d100

Author:  Dave95693 [ Thu Jun 25, 2009 7:47 am ]
Post subject: 

Rock,
Not so much a guess as an observation. I've read a lot of posts where they talk about millling the head anywhere from .030 to .100. .050 seems to be the most popular and I tend to be on the conservative side when it comes to machining. Have you ever had any realiability problems going that far?

Author:  rock [ Thu Jun 25, 2009 8:02 am ]
Post subject:  Dave, no problems at all

Hi Dave,

Never had a problem. I run a pretty well built engine as you can find in old posts (mine is a lot like Aggressive Ted's). Just off the top of my head I kind of remember the pistons being .176 down in the block and they may have been deeper. Look at the pics I posted recently of the head in a combustion chamber thread and you will see a lot of meat left even with .100 off. Next time around, if there ever is one, I will deck the block down too but right now I run so well I am not highly motivated to do the bottom. If I starting, knowing what I know now, yeh, I would take some off the block first. But .050? As most compromises, it is a little sucky, just in my opinion. You might PM dart270, ted, and a few of the other guys who have done similar engine work, too for their opinion.
Ultimately what fascinates me about the 225 is all the interrelated things you can do together, and should....breathing (cam, valves, exhaust) , firing (advance, recurving, timing, ignition) and so on.

rock
'64 d100

Author:  66aCUDA [ Thu Jun 25, 2009 8:05 am ]
Post subject: 

Dave
I think you will be MUCH happier with .100. I have used this on a couple of builds now and really like it. Most slants are around .180 in the hole. I have not had push rod issues til I got to .150 off (head /block combined). As with anything else MEASURE.
My 02.
Frank

Author:  mopardemon71 [ Thu Jun 25, 2009 8:38 am ]
Post subject: 

If you plan a full rebuild you can use the k-1/wiseco rod/piston kit and with a slight clean up on you head and block you should be in a little over 10 to 1 with a 54/55 cc combustion chamber. You can keep the material there for extra strength but when its all said and done either way you should be happy.

Author:  Dave95693 [ Thu Jun 25, 2009 10:05 am ]
Post subject:  Very interesting

When I get it apart, I will do the measurements and go from there. My machinist will flip though. He always lectures me when I want to go over what is just need to surface correctly. Obviously I'm shooting for more compression. .100 sounds intreging and I am not opposed to experimentation.

When you guys put a cam in, do you shoot for high rpm torque or midrange or lower? I've also read that since this engine has a long stroke, it is better to install a cam where the peak torque come in around 4000rpm. What do you think?

Author:  Aggressive Ted [ Thu Jun 25, 2009 10:33 am ]
Post subject: 

For stock peak torque is at 2000 rpm @ 200 foot pounds or so. Peak HP is measure at 4000 rpm, 100 to 145 HP depending on the year and system they used.

The 225 SL6 is a long stroke motor.........with that in mind, I built mine for "Torque and Mileage" since it is heavy 3600 pounds (with me and full tank) and a daily driver. I need all the low end punch possible to get it moving efficiently.
I picked the Erson 254 profile based on on Doc's recipe he gave me and followed it closely with a few upgrades such as indexing and advancing the cam, balancing the crank rods and psitons, 3 angle grind, major porting to get the kink in the flow out, teflon coating the pistons, cutting the stock tolerances, running 0-30W synthetic, 2 1/4 exhaust all the way, free flowing muffler (which I haven't purchased yet, 5x11x18 MagnaFlow), porting the exhaust manifold, recurving the distributor to uncap the engines potential, etc.

So to answer your question "lower" for a daily driver.
A little higher for race car.
You still need to get a good 60' time, so more torque is needed as well as an extended top end.

What is your plan for the car?

Author:  rock [ Thu Jun 25, 2009 1:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Dave, I live in the high torque, low rpm world

Dave,
Glad to see my forum colleagues who also have done a lot of engine work see basically what I have found out too. I live in the high torque low rpm world below 4500 rpm. WHen your advance is all in at say 2800 rpm and you are running 3.91 gears on a 3000 pound+ vehicle, looking for lots of horses at 6500 is not what you will get in a slant. Part of the fun is getting lots earlier!
rock
'64d100

Author:  Dave95693 [ Sun Jun 28, 2009 9:06 am ]
Post subject:  All good things to know

I really appreciate all of your inputs. My plans for this car is to be competitive on the strip. Although I have used this as a daily driver, that capacity is limited as it does not have AC. In Sacramento, that is a must. So being that as it may, once I do the rebuild, this winter, I will be towing it to the different strips we race at. What the Demon has already is the Super Six setup with a Holley 500 cfm and a new exhaust 2.25 pipe into a flow through magnaflow muffler. My thinking is the carb is too much although it handles extremely well and burns correctly. By boring out the block at least .030, milling the head .100 and a low rpm high torque cam, the carb should be a better fit. What kind of cam I have not decided with the exception of what you guys have told me. I'm not familiar with all the durations and lifts. Since you now know what my plans are, what would you suggest???

By the way, I picked up a Mallory Unilite Distributor, model 4562202 I believe. Not bad...$50 and never installed. But I can't get a straight answer from Mallory as to what other parts I need to make it work. Any ideas?

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