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oiling problem help needed
https://slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=39739		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  2kids [ Tue Apr 06, 2010 5:49 pm ]
Post subject:  oiling problem help needed
Hi,
I've recently purchased a 71 dart swinger /6 225. I was told the top of the engine was recently rebuilt and upon firing it up for the first time the previous owner realized low oil pressure and shut it down. Unfortunately shortly after that the poor guys life pretty much fell a part and he was never able to solve the problem - his neighbor was the one who handled the sale of the car for him since he had to move on very short notice - so...my point is that I don't have a ton of info on the rebuild.

Here's what I have done to explore the problem:

1. I have taken out the rocker shaft and verified it was in correctly.

2. I then cranked the engine over several times to see if any oil was coming out of the rear rocker bolt hole - it was not.

3. I then removed the lower rear cylinder head bolt (closet to the firewall) and fished a wire down - poked around some and then cranked the engine over several times to see if any oil would come up - no luck.

Where in the world do I go from here? Trying to explore all of my options before having to consider that the cam bearings are in wrong. I have very limited mechanical experience and know I may have to enlist more experienced help soon.

thanks!
Darcy
Author:  Pierre [ Tue Apr 06, 2010 11:19 pm ]
Post subject: 
I don't think your going to get the pump spinning fast enough just on the starter alone to get oil up there. Not the stock starter at least.

Did you run the engine before taking it apart and actually measure the pressure? When one says "top end" that usually means the head only. If it had low pressure before, rebuilding the head won't do much of anything. Without taking it apart fully you won't know much.

Service the pump relief valve?
Author:  Charrlie_S [ Wed Apr 07, 2010 4:29 am ]
Post subject: 
First things first. verify low/no oil pressure. Remove the oil pressure sender/switch from the oil pump assy, and install a mechanical gauge. If you show good oil pressure on the gauge, it is probably a cam bearing problem. If you show low oil pressure on the gauge, it could be a bad oil pump/relief valve. It could also be a crack in the oil pickup tube, or the tube not installed properly. Not likely but also possible is a oil galley plug behind the timing cover, not installed. These suggestions are assuming the proper size bearings were installed, during the rebuild.
Author:  Doc [ Wed Apr 07, 2010 8:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: oiling problem help needed
Quote:
....Where in the world do I go from here?
Trying to explore all of my options before having to consider that the cam bearings are in wrong. I have very limited mechanical experience and know I may have to enlist more experienced help soon.

thanks!
Darcy
Remove the oil filter and crank over the engine, oil should pump out of the hole that is off to the forward side of the filter's mounting flange.
If no oil pumps out, pour some oil into that hole and try again.
If still no oil, it is a pump or oil pick-up problem as discribed above.
(It is a good idea to put a catch pan under the pump while doing this test)
DD
Author:  2kids [ Wed Apr 07, 2010 8:45 am ]
Post subject: 
Okay guys thanks very much for the suggestions!!

I'll remove the oil filter and crank it over and go from there.
Author:  2kids [ Wed Apr 07, 2010 8:47 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
First things first. verify low/no oil pressure. Remove the oil pressure sender/switch from the oil pump assy, and install a mechanical gauge. If you show good oil pressure on the gauge, it is probably a cam bearing problem. If you show low oil pressure on the gauge, it could be a bad oil pump/relief valve. It could also be a crack in the oil pickup tube, or the tube not installed properly. Not likely but also possible is a oil galley plug behind the timing cover, not installed. These suggestions are assuming the proper size bearings were installed, during the rebuild.
Hi Charlie, thanks! I am curious - do I need to actually run the engine to do this or can I just crank it over and get a reading on the oil pressure?

Thanks again!
Author:  Charrlie_S [ Wed Apr 07, 2010 6:34 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Quote:
First things first. verify low/no oil pressure. Remove the oil pressure sender/switch from the oil pump assy, and install a mechanical gauge. If you show good oil pressure on the gauge, it is probably a cam bearing problem. If you show low oil pressure on the gauge, it could be a bad oil pump/relief valve. It could also be a crack in the oil pickup tube, or the tube not installed properly. Not likely but also possible is a oil galley plug behind the timing cover, not installed. These suggestions are assuming the proper size bearings were installed, during the rebuild.
Hi Charlie, thanks! I am curious - do I need to actually run the engine to do this or can I just crank it over and get a reading on the oil pressure?

Thanks again!
You should be able to get a pressure reading just by cranking, but I think I would do like Doc sugested, and remove the filter, and see if you have any oil flow. If yes then reinstall the filter and do the gauge pressure test. After the filter fills with oil, a good engine and pump should be able to get close to 20 psi cranking.
Author:  Doc [ Thu Apr 08, 2010 8:35 am ]
Post subject: 
Pulling all the spark plugs before doing all the suggested test cranking will help.
DD
Author:  2kids [ Thu Apr 08, 2010 5:25 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Pulling all the spark plugs before doing all the suggested test cranking will help.
DD
Okay. I removed the oil filter and cranked the engine and definitly get oil up out of the hole where the filter attaches.

What next? I've heard filling the filter with oil before attaching it might help get it flowing....?

thanks!
Author:  Slanted Opinion [ Fri Apr 09, 2010 4:05 am ]
Post subject: 
Get the gauge from your local auto parts supplier and confirm that you really do have a low oil pressure problem and just how bad that problem is.

You should see some pressure just by cranking it, as mentioned above.

If you've got some oil popping up through the pump then it is likely you will have "some" kind of oil pressure... you may need to just start it while you monitor the gauge.

Slants are known to run on very little oil pressure (this is not desirable by any means, but it is common), so I don't believe that running it for a brief few seconds to get the reading will cause any more issues than you may already have.

- Mac
Author:  SlantSixDan [ Fri Apr 09, 2010 7:16 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
What next? I've heard filling the filter with oil before attaching it might help get it flowing....?
No. And even if your oil pressure is lower than it ought to be, you should be seeing some oil at the top end. You need to figure out what is preventing oil getting from the bottom end to the top end. The head gasket might be blocking the passage, a chunk of gunk might be blocking the passage, the rear cam bearing could be improperly installed, or the camshaft itself may be improperly drilled so that the oil "in" and "out" holes in the cam bearing (and block) are never connected no matter what the rotative position of the cam.
Author:  Doc [ Fri Apr 09, 2010 8:43 am ]
Post subject: 
Image
Author:  2kids [ Fri Apr 09, 2010 11:09 am ]
Post subject: 
1. Just want to see if you guys agree that turning the engine over with just the starter several times for several seconds is enough to get the oil up through the lower cylindar head bolt hole? My understanding is that that should do it.

2. Is there no way to manually try and pump the oil up?

3. If there's gunk on the lower end causing a blockage any suggestions for trying to de-gunk the passage down there?
Author:  Doc [ Fri Apr 09, 2010 12:45 pm ]
Post subject: 
It takes a minute or two of running to get oil out to the rocker arms.

Here is what I would do:
Add a mechanical oil pressure gauge or confirm that the oil pressure "idiot light" works, then start the engine, confirm that it is getting at least 15 psi of pressure. (the light goes off at 15 psi)

Remove the valve cover & pour a little oil over all the rocker arms if they look dry. Start the engine and inspect for oil flow at the rocker arms. double check the valve lash adjustment while you are waiting.

Recheck to be sure that you still have at least 15 psi of oil pressure after warm-up. If no oil comes out of the rocker arms after 2-3 minutes of operation, shut the engine off and remove the lower rear head bolt. Restart the engine to see if oil is getting past the cam and to the head bolt hole.
DD
Author:  Fopar [ Fri Apr 09, 2010 2:08 pm ]
Post subject: 
I thought the light went out at about 8 lb pressure. I would also remove the rearmost rocker arm shaft bolt first, then if no oil try the head bolt.
Just a different point of view, not wanting to argue with Doc. :shrug: :oops:
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