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science project
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Author:  Russ [ Wed Aug 21, 2002 9:09 pm ]
Post subject:  science project
I've got a couple of vehicles with slant6 and want to do a "science" project with them. The requirement is that every thing should be cheap, with minimum machining. My personal thing is to build a better computer ECU (cheap) so I can hook up my PDA to the vehicle. I would like to also get better performance, and perhaps, more hp.
Right now I'm looking at improving the ECU, adding throttle body fuel injection, improving the oil handling, and improving cooling. All with as many "bolt on" and home made parts as possible.
Does any one here have ideas or recommendations?


OBD-II
lyttlec@earthlink.net
Author:  Doctor Dodge (Doug Dutra) [ Wed Aug 21, 2002 10:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: TBI project ??
Quote:
: I've got a couple of vehicles with slant6 and
: want to do a "science" project
: with them. The requirement is that every
: thing should be cheap, with minimum
: machining. My personal thing is to build a
: better computer ECU (cheap) so I can hook up
: my PDA to the vehicle. I would like to also
: get better performance, and perhaps, more
: hp.
: Right now I'm looking at improving the ECU,
: adding throttle body fuel injection,
: improving the oil handling, and improving
: cooling. All with as many "bolt
: on" and home made parts as possible.
: Does any one here have ideas or
: recommendations?


When I walk through today's junkyards I note all the TBI and EFI units available for cheap. At one point I took a F0&# 4 cylinder TBI unit (a single barrel) and placed it onto a SL6 1 BBl intake manifold and the bolt holes and opening lined-up!

So, if you could grab a "junkyard" TBI throttle body, and any needed sensor(s), then have a simple to wire "ECU" to run it all, that would be a great alternative to the worn-out 1 bbl Holley & Carter carbs many SL6 owners are currently using.

This could be a nice "poor man's" swap to a better fuel metering system, without the manifold / fuel rail fabrication work needed when going to the IR-EFI / injector setup.

Do you know what type of electronics are needed to successfully "drive" a small TBI throttle body?
DD
Author:  John Killin [ Thu Aug 22, 2002 6:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: TBI project ??
Quote:
: When I walk through today's junkyards I note
: all the TBI and EFI units available for
: cheap. At one point I took a F0&# 4 cylinder
: TBI unit (a single barrel) and placed it
: onto a SL6 1 BBl intake manifold and the
: bolt holes and opening lined-up!
:
: So, if you could grab a "junkyard"
: TBI throttle body, and any needed sensor(s),
: then have a simple to wire "ECU"
: to run it all, that would be a great
: alternative to the worn-out 1 bbl Holley
: & Carter carbs many SL6 owners are
: currently using.
:
: This could be a nice "poor man's" swap
: to a better fuel metering system, without
: the manifold / fuel rail fabrication work
: needed when going to the IR-EFI / injector
: setup.
:
: Do you know what type of electronics are needed
: to successfully "drive" a small
: TBI throttle body?
: DD


I have not done anything with fuel injection before. I am still using the single barrel carb and intake and am working on my plan for the future.

I did find a site for an interesting ECU option.
<A HREF="http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html ... rt.html</A>

It is a build it yourself, program it yourself unit. They have all the schematics and even have posted the code for the software on the website. They are doing a group purchase next month for all the parts. It is going to run about $100.

Has anybody tried, or evaluated this option?

John

Megasquirt
Killin5@yahoo.com
Author:  elam [ Thu Aug 22, 2002 6:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: TBI project ??
Quote:
: I have not done anything with fuel injection
: before. I am still using the single barrel
: carb and intake and am working on my plan
: for the future.
:
: I did find a site for an interesting ECU
: option.
: <A HREF="http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html ... rt.html</A>
:
: It is a build it yourself, program it yourself
: unit. They have all the schematics and even
: have posted the code for the software on the
: website. They are doing a group purchase
: next month for all the parts. It is going to
: run about $100.
:
: Has anybody tried, or evaluated this option?
:
: John


I like the way Dart 270 Lou did it Might be cheaper in the long run.


melam@nxs.net
Author:  DusterIdiot [ Thu Aug 22, 2002 6:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: TBI project ??
A friend and I are going to do the Chebby TBI route since we already know of one that is working and running on the street.

You'd need to fabricate an adapter plate to bolt up to a super six manifold, and grab a TBI unit off a 2.8 Chevy V-6, along with the EPROM...

An oxygen sensor needs to be added to the exhaust pipe, and making the switch to HEI puts you in the long run to help the EPROM out...

Some teething problems we've already predicted for this project is injector size (it may have to take a 2.8 TB and 4.3 injectors...), which year computer is better for the app, and how will it run in modified slants...

good luck, it sounds like you are going to have fun with it...

-D.Idiot
Author:  Russ [ Thu Aug 22, 2002 7:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: TBI project ??
Quote:
: When I walk through today's junkyards I note
: all the TBI and EFI units available for
: cheap. At one point I took a F0&# 4 cylinder
: TBI unit (a single barrel) and placed it
: onto a SL6 1 BBl intake manifold and the
: bolt holes and opening lined-up!
:
: So, if you could grab a "junkyard"
: TBI throttle body, and any needed sensor(s),
: then have a simple to wire "ECU"
: to run it all, that would be a great
: alternative to the worn-out 1 bbl Holley
: & Carter carbs many SL6 owners are
: currently using.
:
: This could be a nice "poor man's"
: swap to a better fuel metering system,
: without the manifold / fuel rail fabrication
: work needed when going to the IR-EFI /
: injector setup.
:
: Do you know what type of electronics are needed
: to successfully "drive" a small
: TBI throttle body?
: DD

Good idea on the throttle body. If we can't open up a junkyard ECU, I have several single board computers to use : a PC-104, Motorola HC11 and HC16 kits. For timing, I was thinking of using an old distributor with a disk having 6 holes that would line up with an led when its cylinder was perhaps 45 degrees before TDC. If I had 6 coils, the computer can put out a signal to fire the proper coil at the proper time. I think the most difficult part is going to be the knock sensor. Everything else is pretty standard stuff (temperature, pressure, time) cheaply available.

lyttlec@earthlink.net
Author:  Russ [ Thu Aug 22, 2002 7:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: TBI project ??
Quote:
: I have not done anything with fuel injection
: before. I am still using the single barrel
: carb and intake and am working on my plan
: for the future.
:
: I did find a site for an interesting ECU
: option.
: <A HREF="http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html ... rt.html</A>
:
: It is a build it yourself, program it yourself
: unit. They have all the schematics and even
: have posted the code for the software on the
: website. They are doing a group purchase
: next month for all the parts. It is going to
: run about $100.
:
: Has anybody tried, or evaluated this option?
:
: John

Thanks for the link. I was thinking of building something a bit more advanced, but the Megasquirt might be just the thing to start with.

lyttlec@earthlink.net
Author:  Doc. [ Fri Aug 23, 2002 9:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: TBI controller - kit?
Quote:
: Good idea on the throttle body. If we can't
: open up a junkyard ECU, I have several
: single board computers to use : a PC-104,
: Motorola HC11 and HC16 kits. For timing, I
: was thinking of using an old distributor
: with a disk having 6 holes that would line
: up with an led when its cylinder was perhaps
: 45 degrees before TDC. If I had 6 coils, the
: computer can put out a signal to fire the
: proper coil at the proper time. I think the
: most difficult part is going to be the knock
: sensor. Everything else is pretty standard
: stuff (temperature, pressure, time) cheaply
: available.


Keep us posted on your progress.
If there was an inexpensive controller available with a wiring harness and a set of instructions outlining what other parts were needed, (Throttle body, sensors etc.) then I could see this as a popular alturnative to spending a couple of hunderd $$ on a "replacement" 1 bbl carb.
DD
Author:  Dart270 [ Fri Aug 23, 2002 9:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: TBI project ??
Quote:
: I like the way Dart 270 Lou did it Might be
: cheaper in the long run.


Elam,

You give me more credit than I deserve. All I did was get a Holley 670 ProJection unit and build a little converter circuit for the spark input. It works fine, but the computer is very primitive and uses no feedback sensors except coolant temp. I plan to upgrade probably to either a MegaSquirt DYI unit or a Holley 950 ECU to run the same TBI+fuel pump with O2/MAP sensors. I think if you went with that DYI unit and junkyard parts, you could probably put together a rock-solid system for $250-300 with some tinkering.

From experience building circuits in my lab and programming computers, I believe it is more cost/time/fun effective for me personally to use a programmable ECU that someone else has spent 1000 hours debugging and refining. The Holley 950 ECU is about $500. This does programmable ignition timing curves too.

I am very interested in following Russ' progress here.

Lou
Author:  sandy in BC [ Sat Aug 24, 2002 10:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: TBI project ??
I am in the middle of a TBI swap on a SBC using all GM parts. My plan is to do my slant along similar lines....Everything will be oriented towards torque production and mileage....the key is good donor parts access and perserverance.I plan to use 4.3 stuff on the slant.
My GF's 87 Dakota 3.9 with Holley TBI made me chose the GM version. The Holley Throttle body is too tall.
Author:  DusterIdiot [ Sat Aug 24, 2002 6:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: TBI project ??
Quote:
: I am in the middle of a TBI swap on a SBC using

I plan to use 4.3 stuff on the slant.

One of the other things we haven't let out of the bag, since my buddy was the head troubleshooter for the local chubby dealership is the 2.8 throttle body according to GM flows 550 CFM (at what Hg I'm not certain.) We wanted to try the 4.3 but felt it might be too much for the slant to start and decided a modified 2.8 with possibly 4.3 injectors might be the key.

Let us know what you find out during your experiment... :)

-D.Idiot
Author:  Matt Cramer [ Sun Aug 25, 2002 4:54 pm ]
Post subject:  TBI wiring and sensors
Quote:
: When I walk through today's junkyards I note
: all the TBI and EFI units available for
: cheap. At one point I took a F0&# 4 cylinder
: TBI unit (a single barrel) and placed it
: onto a SL6 1 BBl intake manifold and the
: bolt holes and opening lined-up!


Interesting. Would the two barrel TBI off some of their 3.8 V6's work on a Super Six? That might be something to check out next time I go yarding - that would probably be a better match for the slant, particularly if they use MAP sensors. (See below)
:
: Do you know what type of electronics are needed
: to successfully "drive" a small
: TBI throttle body?
: DD

Not knowing about how Ford runs their TBI's, I'll have to guess it. Here are the sensors it is likely to need.

1. An oxygen sensor. These are pretty much all alike, although the 2-wire is more accurate than 1-wire, and the 4-wire is more accurate still. You can use whichever one fits your needs and budget.

2. The coolant temperature sensor. This should be an easy one to put in, and is used to indicate when it should run in cold start mode (an electronic "choke".

3. A tach signal. I'm not entirely sure how you'd get that, but I bet the point on a Mopar electronic ignition that you get the tach signal from will work on Fords too.

4. Throttle position sensor. This is stuck to the throttle body itself.

5. Air temperature sensor. This may not be there, but some systens use them.

6. Whatever measures the airflow. Hopefully this will be a MAF sensor, which is a device that the air flows through and it measures the flow rate. On Fords in the '80s this usually had the air pushing against a spring loaded flap. If it has one, you're pretty much good to go. If you're unlucky, though, it'll use a MAP sensor.

What's so bad about MAP sensors? Well, this means you have a speed-density system. This uses the engine speed and the manifold pressure (from where it gets the density) to calculate how much fuel to inject. So it'll feed a slant six at 4,000 RPM the same amount of fuel as a 2.3 four-banger gets at 4,000 RPM. Obviously, this would be trouble. You would have to get around this somehow. Normally, Ford TBI's run low pressure fuel systems, somewhere comparable to what a carb uses (I wouldn't use a mechanical pump with one, though). If you turned up the pressure and put in an adjustable regulator, you might be able to make it work on a slant six. Otherwise, you'd have to burn a custom chip for it.

Hope this helps!

Matt
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