I checked out my brother's recently purchased 4 liter Mustang with a T-5. The ignition pick up trigger looks to be an integral part of the crank at the front. The front of the cranks sticks out about maybe 4" between the timing chain cover and the pulleys on the front. This section of the crank is ribbed, and the pick up sensor is right there up near it. I did not count the ribs on the crank, but it looks like 36 would be close to right. It would be nearly impossible to duplicate this on a slant, but you could certainly go with a wheel and the same sensor out in front of the pulleys.

It seems as if maybe you could make this EFI system work with a slant and a front pickup wheel, if you could figure out the wiring. It's pretty much buried in harnesses. If you had a donner car, you could dig into the harnesses and get this worked out. And, it looks like the ECU is right up front, so there is no complicated bulkhead connector to get worked out as on the GM systems we all looked at there for awhile.

Sam

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What year is the mustang? The system I am thinking about definitely uses a senor under the rotor to both count ignition pulses and thereby gauge RPM but also has a unique signal to tell the computer when #1 is at TDC. No crank trigger is used.

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Casually looking for a Clifford hyperpak intake for cheap.

It is a 2005. And it has a 6x coil pack, EDIS. The thing I like about this set up is that you could substitute a front mount pickup wheel and transfer everything else over verbatim. The thing you would have to do is make the teeth on the wheel exactly the same width as the splines on the crank snout. It would not matter that they were further apart, the time between pulses would be the same. But apparently, from my reading in the Mega manual you must have the trigger teeth a certain width, and it must match the width of the sensor pick up for it to be an accurate read.

ArE you saying the system you are looking at has all the trigger function in a distributor?

My experience with the Megasquirt, and my failure to get the ignition working with the ECU tells me this is the most complex part of the system. The wave shape and what the ECu is expecting to see must match for it to work. And if the sine wave is reversed, the ECU will not work. You would think it would make not difference, but the wave shape is different on the back side from the front, and the ECu must know which to read. And this has a real impact on the timing the distributor sees.

The confusing thing about the MS II is apparently there is a processor that reads the wave form first, and then reverses it before the ECU sees it. I was very confused by this. And felt too embarrassed to ask more about it on the MS forum. I had already asked so many dumb questions, I just ran out of steam and gave up. But if you could lift a working set up directly from one vehicle to another, without changing anything at all, it should behave well, and work. AT least I would have the confidence to give this a try.

Reed, I think you have something there. Keep thinking it through.

Sam

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Like this?



Still need to make a sensor bracket for it...


Don't forget all the other sensors, including stuffing a copy of the cam sensor in the distributor, the drive by wire gas pedal setup, and antitheft module. And, unless you have a way of hacking the ECU and disabling the, the smog control components.

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"Mad Scientist" Matt Cramer
'66 Dart - turbocharged 225
My blog - Mad Scientist Matt's Lair

Yes. I need to confirm that the 96 300 injection system uses the same type of sensor, but I do know that the 89-93 5.0 fuel injection system that got familiar with swapping it into my Ford van dues indeed use a Hall effect sensor tucked under the distributor rotor to trigger the ECU. It only has 8 vanes (one for each cylinder) but the van for cylinder #1 is skinnier than the other 7 vanes. This tells the ECU the RPM as well as when cylinder #1 is at TDC. Since this is a sequential fire injection system, it is critical that the ECU know the positions of the cylinders.

Here is the sensor I am talking about:

http://fordfuelinjection.com/index.php?p=25

Tis is small enough that it appears it might be able to be tucked under the cap of a lean-burn type slant six distributor, but I need to get my hands on an injected 300 distributor to really play with it and see if it really could be adapted to a slant six distributor. If not, then I think a replacement stator and pickup could be mounted to the front of the crank snout to create the correct signal.

I wonder if this unit could be replaced by a Pertronix system? I doubt it, since the vanes probably would all be the same width on the Pertronix system and the computer would not receive the correct signal.

I will keep investigating this system further. I really need to get some 95-96 specific Ford service manuals and parts books to see what, exactly, made up the 300 MAF sequential injection system. THen I know for sure what to look for.

If the 95-96 300 MAF sequential injection system is set up like the 89-93 5.0 injection system, then you need the engine sensors but they are all external- air charge temp sensor, coolant temp sensor, throttle position sensor, EGR valve position sensor (products exist delete this and fool the computer if you are so inclined), PIP sensor (the one in the distributor), barometric pressure sensor (AKA, MAP sensor with the vacuum line disconnected), vehicle speed sensor (plugs into the transmission at the speedo drive gear mount- should be able to be adapted to a Mopar tranny), MAF sensor, O2 sensor, and that's it. Not too many and none are too difficult to retrofit to a slant six. No cam or crank sensors to fool with.

I was able to instal MAF sequential injection on a 1984 351 motor that was originally a carbed motor. All I had to swap was the distributor and the intake and exhaust manifolds. The rest of the injection system is stand alone and external.

www.fordfuelinjection.com has tons of great info about the system I used, but nothing about the 300 system I am talking about for a slant six. I have heard that some Ford six cylinder motors used the same computer as the Mustang 5.0, and if that were true, then that would be another option. However, I can't confirm that this rumor is true.

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Casually looking for a Clifford hyperpak intake for cheap.

I'm almost certain it isn't. At most, some may have used the same circuit board with different calibration. No six cylinder Ford used the same ECU part number as the 5.0. The closest relative to the Mustang ECU on six cylinder motors seems to be sequentially injected, distributor equipped 3.0 V6s.

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"Mad Scientist" Matt Cramer
'66 Dart - turbocharged 225
My blog - Mad Scientist Matt's Lair

Ford based on EDIS uses 36-1 wheel pressed onto damper or intergal with the flywheel at rear.

Sensor is just a magnetic pickup with winding around the magnetic bar.

Cheers, Wizard

Matt, What does the missing tooth do on your trigger wheel?

Sam

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The missing tooth is so it knows where #1 cylinder is.

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Ed
64 Valiant 225 / 904 / 42:1 manual steering / 9" drum brakes

Does the trigger wheel control fuel or spark? Both fuel and spark? How does this integrate with single cam sensor signal in the distributor? Hang with me and answer these "basic" questions for me please. Couldn't an ECU be programed to fuel one go round, and spark the next? I need to wrap my mind around some of these more basic questions, that may in fact be relevant to old tech to some extent.

Sam

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It supplies an engine position / RPM signal to the ECU. This is normally used for fuel and spark control as well as any other function dependent on crank angle or RPM.
The crank trigger can tell you how far up the cylinder the piston is and how fast it's moving, but not which stroke it's on. You need more information from the cam to determine that point.
I'm not sure I follow that question. If an ECU shut off the spark on all cylinders for one crankshaft revolution, half the cylinders wouldn't fire. Some bank to bank ECUs can fire the injectors only once every other crankshaft rotation and make that work, however.

A sequential injected ECU, if it lets you adjust the injector timing, could be set up so the injector closed 360 degrees before the spark fired if you wanted to. Or any other arbitrary number of degrees. Usually they're tuned so the injector stops spraying about the same time the intake valve opens.

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"Mad Scientist" Matt Cramer
'66 Dart - turbocharged 225
My blog - Mad Scientist Matt's Lair

Number one fires every other stroke, and fuel every other stroke, correct?. So if the missing tooth identifies number one, could the ECU be programed to fire the spark plug on number one time around, and fuel number one the next time around? And so forth with each cylinder. I understand that for each revolution half are firing and half would be fueling.

Or does it still require a cam sensor to know if it is on the compression or exhaust stroke? Is that the only way this info can be obtained?

Sam

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EDIS is wasted spark system. That is, two plugs fire at the same time, always. This means that the same pair of plugs fire every revolution, meaning one catches an exhausted cylinder, one is on time to fire.

I will be putting the EDIS system on my slant sometime in the next couple months.

Gotcha. Thanks. Light bulb time. How about the fuel with EDIS? Is this batch fire, or sequential? Does it time the fuel to the intake valve. Or does this vary from set up to set up? Please let us know how this works out for you.

Sam

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You can't do sequential with EDIS as your pickup and timing signal.

I'm using TBI, so that's a moot question anyway. as far as my implementation goes.

The EDIS system provides a timing signal back to the computer for every spark, if I understand correctly, so that the computer knows the true rpm of the engine.

The only communication that the computer has to send to the EDIS system is called SAW, or Spark Angle Word - which simply tells the EDIS system how many degrees of advance to fire at. The EDIS is vaguely fault tolerant, in that occasional missing or corrupted signal from the computer OR the sensor (like due to noise) is non-critical, it keeps firing, as close to proper time as it can guess. Each engine revolution gives it a missing tooth to help re-sync in case it gets "off".

In case it hears nothing from the computer, it will default to timing the spark based on the position of the wheel ( a default of 10 degrees before TDC).

Hope this is helpful in understanding the EDIS (wasted spark) system, as compared to the sequential fire, cam sense systems.