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Charging problem?
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Author:  wjajr [ Tue May 31, 2011 6:13 am ]
Post subject:  Charging problem?
Over Charging Problem?

Since last summer, my Dart has had a weeping battery where over time it emits a small amount of electrolyte into the battery tray. This year, after driving it 5-600 miles and a freshly painted battery tray the weeping is back. Also new this summer, I have noticed white formation on steel battery hold-down clamps at point of attachment to tray, and one of the battery cable clamp nuts.

An equipment ground loop picking up chassis of orange box, voltage regulator, and negative battery terminal were installed late last summer.

Also after installing headlight relays when engine is idled down in gear, headlights go dim / bright to the engine lope, something that did not happen previous to this modification that I remember. I realize that the headlights are now off the voltage regulated portion of electrical system, and subject to the whims of the alternators out-put at low rpm of say 600 at idle in gear.

Alternator is a rebuilt duel field of unknown output. It was installed before I purchased the car, as was a rather new looking voltage regulator of unknown manufacture.

Is this an indication of over charging battery, and need of a new voltage regulator?

Bill
Author:  Slanted Opinion [ Tue May 31, 2011 8:09 am ]
Post subject: 
Overcharging a battery is a function of too high of a voltage being output by the charging system.

You need to monitor the voltage while the car is running to discover if your system is overcharging.

A digital voltmeter will give you this info... there are also inexpensive gadgets that plug into your cigarette lighter to monitor your system voltage while you are driving.

- Mac
Author:  KBB_of_TMC [ Tue May 31, 2011 9:29 am ]
Post subject: 
I bought a felt pad treated with some chemical buffer that sits under the battery to avoid any corrosion - seems to have worked fine for years. I think I got it from J.C.Whitney, but there are a number of places that sell them. Just FYI.
Author:  WagonsRcool [ Thu Jun 02, 2011 1:38 pm ]
Post subject: 
Definitely check your charging voltage at the battery, at idle & at 2000, both with no electrical load & full lights, blower, etc. Should stay under 14.5V.

If you want to reduce acid damage around the battery, you can try a different style of battery. One type is the Delco "maintainance free" batt - it has no removeable vents (also Exide brand?)- very little outgassing but does poorly if you fully discharge it several times.

Another type is the Optima "spiral wound" series that is completely sealed. I've heard good things about these batt but they are pricier than normal types.
Author:  SlantSixDan [ Thu Jun 02, 2011 1:59 pm ]
Post subject: 
The anticorrosion felt pads for under the battery (and under each cable clamp) will not fix the problem, just reduce the resultant damage. You are definitely overcharging, and your oscillating voltage (as indicated by dim/bright/dim/bright lights) suggests voltage regulation issues. What exact regulator are you running?

The whole car is voltage regulated. You did not move the headlamps from a voltage-unregulated to a voltage-regulated "portion" of the electrical system or vice versa.

Buying a so-called "maintenance free" battery that contains liquid acid and does not have removable cell caps is a poor idea; sooner or later the battery _will_ need water and you won't be able to add it. Battery companies like this state of affairs; it means battery dies (and you replace it) sooner, and they get to advertise "maintenance free!". On top of that, an ACDelco battery will likely leave you stranded at random; quality has been dropping fast and badly. If you buy a conventional battery, get a maintenance-accessible one (with removable cell caps). It will likely be labelled "maintenance free" but you will be able to check and add water periodically. As for non-liquid-acid batteries, Optima was reliable years ago, may be reliable again, but has a bad reputation to overcome; see here. I've been really happy with two Exide Orbital spiral-cell batteries (bought for two separate vehicles and subsequently transferred into others). But even if you install a no-spill battery, you need to get your charging system in proper working order or you'll cook whatever battery you install, and do other damage.
Author:  Pierre [ Thu Jun 02, 2011 11:28 pm ]
Post subject: 
Optima's used to be my favorite. Red tops / non deep cycles are sensitive to severe discharges. I recall killing one or two leaving the lights on so I got a deep cycle yellow top version. Once it came time to replace it (lived its useful life, close to a decade old, failed randomly out of the blue... cell isn't shorted, appears just sulphated... gonna play around with a desulphator) I shopped around. The price of yellow tops were about the same as diehard platinum's (rebadged hawker odyssey) so I decided to go that way. Odyssey are AGM batteries but use flat bits instead of spiral cells so you get a little more plate area for any given size.
Author:  emsvitil [ Fri Jun 03, 2011 12:17 am ]
Post subject: 
From various 4x4 sites, Optimas went to hell when they started making them in Mexico and cheaped out on the original design.


Odyssey is the battery to get now (or the Sears Platninum which is a rebadged Odyssey, and often cheaper than equivalent Odyssey)
Author:  wjajr [ Fri Jun 03, 2011 5:37 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Also after installing headlight relays when engine is idled down in gear, headlights go dim / bright to the engine lope, something that did not happen previous to this modification that I remember. I realize that the headlights are now off the voltage regulated portion of electrical system, and subject to the whims of the alternators out-put at low rpm of say 600 at idle in gear.
Perhaps the higher voltage available to the headlights is causing lower lumen out-put to be more noticeable as voltage cycles up & down during in gear idle than original wire harness allowed.

I have not, and won’t be able to mess with this for a few more days as my mother passed away this morning after a massive stroke on Wednesday.
Quote:
Alternator is a rebuilt duel field of unknown output. It was installed before I purchased the car, as was a rather new looking voltage regulator of unknown manufacture.
I don’t see any numbers or manufacture listed on this old stile non solid state regulator.

I guess I don’t understand just how the regulator works to control voltage from the two field lugs & large insulated shielded bolt that now feed headlights, as it appears to be only connect to the ungrounded lug on the back of the alternator. More study of wire diagram is needed.

At any rate I shall acquire a modern electronic regulator replacing the old breaker points type. Any suggestions for part numbers for a voltage regulator would be appreciated.

Year One shows an aftermarket NG 12 for 26 bucks, but no manufacture listed.
Author:  SlantSixDan [ Fri Jun 03, 2011 6:27 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Perhaps the higher voltage available to the headlights is causing lower lumen out-put to be more noticeable as voltage cycles up & down during in gear idle than original wire harness allowed.
That's a reasonable hypothesis.
Quote:
my mother passed away this morning after a massive stroke on Wednesday
Aw, no. I'm sorry to read of your loss. :-(
Quote:
Alternator is a rebuilt duel field of unknown output.
You may want to remove it for use as an emergency spare and install a new 46A item from Old Car Parts Northwest .
Quote:
I don’t see any numbers or manufacture listed on this old stile non solid state regulator.
Well hell's bells, an old regulator with a bunch of hours on it could account for all your symptoms.
Quote:
I guess I don’t understand just how the regulator works to control voltage from the two field lugs & large insulated shielded bolt that now feed headlights
The voltage regulator is not a throttle valve on the output of the alternator. Rather, it controls current in the alternator's rotating field coils (the "rotor") which in turn varies the output of the alternator. The alternator's B+ output terminal is electrically common with the battery positive terminal. There is no unregulated portion of the electrical system.
Quote:
At any rate I shall acquire a modern electronic regulator replacing the old breaker points type.
Don't buy stuff like this from Year One. Get a NAPA Echlin VR-1001 or a Standard-BlueStreak VR-128. Or take your chance on a lesser-quality item such as a Wells VR-706, but in that case buy two of them so you're ready when the first one fails.
Author:  wjajr [ Sat Jun 04, 2011 5:24 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Aw, no. I'm sorry to read of your loss.
Thank you Dan, she was 88, sharp as a tack, and planning on having her 100th birthday party… The folks were to celebrate their 64th wedding anniversary at the end of June.

Quote:
You may want to remove it for use as an emergency spare and install a new 46A item
The present alternator looks to have been installed shortly before I purchased the car in 08. What would be the reason for its replacement; faulty internals, its two fields, or posable too high ampere rating?

Quote:
Well hell's bells, an old regulator with a bunch of hours on it could account for all your symptoms.
The thing looks as if it came out of its box yesterday, also a new unit installed just prior car’s purchase, and I have just 9000 miles added onto the odometer since than.

Tomorrow I’ll have a few minutes to mess around with a few voltage readings with my son the ME & car nut from Florida.

Quote:
Don't buy stuff like this from Year One. Get a NAPA Echlin VR-1001 or a Standard-BlueStreak VR-128.

Ahhh, that is the info I‘m looking for, a good Napa number. Tomorrow we’ll take a ride and hopefully find one of those two regulators.

Son has been wanting to test drive the Dart since two summers ago when it first got back on the road before any major suspension up grades had been made. He said it was a scary sloppy mess… LOL

Bill
Author:  SlantSixDan [ Sat Jun 04, 2011 6:05 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
The present alternator looks to have been installed shortly before I purchased the car in 08. What would be the reason for its replacement; faulty internals, its two fields, or posable too high ampere rating?
"Unknown remanufactured" usually = problematic.
Quote:
Tomorrow we’ll take a ride and hopefully find one of those two regulators.
Probably have to call ahead and order it in. Don't accept a substitute number.
Author:  wjajr [ Sun Jun 05, 2011 7:08 pm ]
Post subject: 
I just had to know, and just for the record a few voltage readings under different rpm & load conditions. Measured between neg battery terminal and output terminal screw.


No load:
At 1000 rpm curb idle in park = 15.2 volts
At 550 rpm in gear idle = 15.2 volts


Load from headlights burning low beam:
At 1000 rpm curb idle 14.5 volts
At 550 rpm in gear idle 12.5 volts
Author:  SlantSixDan [ Sun Jun 05, 2011 7:32 pm ]
Post subject: 
Way too high. Replace the regulator pronto.
Author:  Sam Powell [ Mon Jun 06, 2011 5:28 am ]
Post subject: 
I would check the voltage on both ends of the wires to and from the regulator. It has been awhile since I have had a regular, Mopar regulator, since I replaced my alternator with a GM one wire, but I remember the old regulator worked better, and more reliably when I replaced the wire and connectors to it in the alternator portion of the harness.

If you see a difference in voltage from one end to the other in any of those wires, you have a high resistance circuit that will not allow any regulator to work correctly.
Sam
Author:  wjajr [ Mon Jun 06, 2011 8:59 am ]
Post subject: 
Sam,

All ignition circuits have new conductors and connectors including additional equipment ground loop servicing ignition components. Like Dan implied, my voltage regulator is crap.

I have located a supplier that has an Echlin VR- 1001 in stock. I just got to go get it when time permits.

Bill
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