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Intermitant starter switch failure.
https://slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=45204		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Sam Powell [ Sat Jun 04, 2011 7:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Intermitant starter switch failure.
This happened once about a year ago. Turn the key and nothing. Short the starter across the big black and red wires, and it spins fine. Get my wife to turn the key while I check the voltage on the yellow wire, and when she turns the key, it fires up. Try it again and it works. But I still am unsure if the problem is the ignition switch or the relay. A full year went between failures, but this shakes your confidence in a car.

Last year I went out and purchased a step on button starter switch for a truck, with the intention of wiring an emergency back up into the system. But I never installed it. It behaved for a year or so. I forgot about the problem until tonight.

So the question: Should I wire this switch the carry the load of the starter or to power the starter relay? If the relay is bad, then wiring it to the relay will not solve the problem. I could still be stranded unless I take my screw driver with me to short the starter leads. This would likely be used only in the rare emergency when it decides to goof off on me.

The part number for the switch is thus: Cole Hersey 90030BP. It is listed 6 to 36 volts, but no amperage rating is given. The tip is rubber covered as if they expect muddy boots to be pushing on it.

Sam
Author:  SlantSixDan [ Sat Jun 04, 2011 8:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Intermitant starter switch failure.
Short answer: do not run full starter current into and out of the car through sheetmetal. Use the switch to power the relay.

Long answer: diagnosing the starter circuit is quick and simple, see here. You could replace every component in the system (start relay, neutral safety switch, ignition/starter switch, and even the starter itself) without great or terrible expenditure or effort.

Slant-6 starter and starter relay are easily accessible by flipping open the hood; why needing emergency backup other than screwdriver? As neat as a step-on starter switch would be, you'd be multiplying parts-and-wires count, thus cancelling out your effort to reduce the likelihood of a failure, at least statistically speaking.
Author:  Sam Powell [ Sun Jun 05, 2011 4:50 am ]
Post subject: 
Thanks Dan. Good point about not running high voltage into the cabin. This particular switch keeps the electrical stuff all outside, since it mounts in the floor. The contacts and connections are all in the fender well, and in a supposedly water proof package. I think these things are used on tractors and mowers often. It would not be seen unless you stuck your head under the dash.

The frustration here is the intermittent nature of the problem with loooong periods of time between failures. I suspect the ignition switch simply because it is the oldest part in the system. There is no neutral safety switch. So only the relay and the ignition switch are suspects.

As to redundancy adding complexity and increasing the likelihood of failure, I suppose you are right. But it seems the chance of them both failing at the same time would be pretty minimal. The second one is just a peace of mind thing. I have certainly erred on the side of complexity with all I have done to this car. It was its most reliable when it was a single barrel carb with points.


So here is a question for you. If I were to be bone headed, and install this switch anyway in a manner that would create contact between the two big starter motor power wires, would the power of the starter motor, which is a mini, destroy this switch if used only when the stock ignition switch (or relay) went on vacation? Or (if I am determined to install something here), is the relay still the thing to fire with the back up switch?

Thanks again for all your time helping us Ludites out. No offense to any other Ludites out there. :wink:

Thanks for the visit last month. It was great to see you. It seems you must have made it back safely in the downpour.

Sam
Author:  makapipi [ Sun Jun 05, 2011 10:47 am ]
Post subject:  second starter sw
Instead of allowing starter solenoid current though the second floor switch,
add a relay on the firewall and use this relay to power the starter .
use the switch to activate the relay.
Author:  SlantSixDan [ Sun Jun 05, 2011 11:45 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
The frustration here is the intermittent nature of the problem with loooong periods of time between failures. I suspect the ignition switch simply because it is the oldest part in the system. There is no neutral safety switch. So only the relay and the ignition switch are suspects.
Okeh…toss in new ones and move on to the next thing. :-)
Quote:
So here is a question for you. If I were to be bone headed, and install this switch anyway in a manner that would create contact between the two big starter motor power wires, would the power of the starter motor, which is a mini, destroy this switch
That depends on the current rating of the switch. You'll need to find it out.
Quote:
Thanks for the visit last month. It was great to see you. It seems you must have made it back safely in the downpour
Likewise! I do remember a bit of rain, but no downpour. :-)
Author:  Sam Powell [ Sun Jun 05, 2011 12:33 pm ]
Post subject: 
You got recommendations for a replacement ignition switch supplier? Do they all come from the same place?

Seemed like it was raining pretty hard to me. You are a hardy soul for sure.

Sam
Author:  DonPal [ Sun Jun 05, 2011 6:30 pm ]
Post subject: 
Don't do what I did to get an ignition switch

I bought a 65 Dart ignition switch off EBAY from vansautollc

It turned out to have a metric thread for the bezel which of course didn't work....vansautollc didn't respond to my complaint.
Author:  SlantSixDan [ Sun Jun 05, 2011 7:32 pm ]
Post subject: 
Van's Auto is a vendor of Chinese toys shaped like auto parts. My favorite story involving them is their response to my note about their "1967-'76 A-body gas cap". I pointed out there are in fact three different non-interchangeable caps spanning that timeframe and the answer came back "We're confident of the fit of our parts; we sent an entire 1968 Dart to China." :roll:

A new switch of good quality should be available from Old Car Parts Northwest. A new switch of passable quality should be available from NAPA or a Standard Ignition stockist.
Author:  Sam Powell [ Mon Jun 13, 2011 1:48 pm ]
Post subject: 
Went to NAPA and to Pep Boys, and neither has a listing for the in-dash, pre-70 ignition lock/switch. Looked up the rating of the floor board starter switch, and it has an ampere rating of 60. Looked up the starter motor draw, and the stock motor draws from 120 to 150 amps under load, with a freewheeling draw of 90. I don't have a reference for the mini starter motor in my car.

I guess I will go to your Norhtwest guy Dan, and see what he has. Is NOS stuff have any drawbacks? Does this kind of thing deteriorate on the shelf?

Sam
Author:  Sam Powell [ Mon Jun 13, 2011 1:58 pm ]
Post subject: 
Contacted Laysons and discovered I was asking for the wrong thing. So NAPA may have it, if I ask for an ignition switch, and not the lock mechanism. I was under the misunderstanding that they were a single unit.

Left a message with Northwest. BTW, Laysons wanted $116 for the switch. They have only 3 NOS ones left.

Sam
Author:  SlantSixDan [ Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:11 pm ]
Post subject: 
The ignition ignition switch and lock cylinder are one-year-only items, not the same as the '60-'68 (and '70 was the first year for the switch in the steering column). There is no need to pay the inflated price you've been quoted, for the '69 switch and lock cylinder are both now being reproduced. Fitty bucks for the switch from Year One, their part number NG-1042. (The lock cylinder, which you probably do not need, is NG-1043). If your key goes right in and out and turns easily with the present lock cylinder, you shouldn't need a new one; you can simply transfer the existing lock cylinder to the new switch.
Author:  Sam Powell [ Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:38 pm ]
Post subject: 
Thanks for the heads up on this. I appreciate it. I will give Year One a call.

Sam
Author:  SlantSixDan [ Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:56 pm ]
Post subject: 
Glad to help. Or gosh, y'know, if you want to spend triple that amount, you can get this rather ridiculously costly conversion kit that lets you use the '60-'68 switch (not included, but "less expensive") in a '69 car. :roll:
Author:  Sam Powell [ Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:52 pm ]
Post subject: 
If you needed all those parts, it is not actually all that expensive. And who knows, if I kept the car another 42 years, I might need another one. Then the savings would really add up. I would be only 107 years old by then.
Sam
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