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| I Give Up!! https://slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4712 |
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| Author: | mszauner [ Sat Dec 28, 2002 7:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | I Give Up!! |
I bought a 1973 Duster for a whopping $250 and it was running OK. I knew it had problems and needed work. As we began checking it over, we noticed zero compression in two cylinders. After removing the head (casting numbers indicated the heads were made 81-83 time period), we noticed bad valves and guides. We had a machine shop redo the heads. After installing the head, it started OK but would not run well when warm. We rebuilt the carb (Holley 1920 single barrel) and it still didn't improve. So, I figured a remanufactured carb might be needed. After installing it, it is almost impossible to start but runs great when warm. I checked the timing again and it was over 30 degrees off and couldn't be adjusted close enough. The timing chain has only a few degrees of slack. I replaced the distributor and aligned the rotor at the first cylinder position while the engine was at TDC on the compression stroke of the first cylinder. It still will not start even though it is getting spark and gas (can easily smell it when cranking). I don't know what year the engine is but it has a ton of pollution stuff that has been disconnected. The engine has the numbers R13 762 on the rear passenger side rail and 1 225R 11 5 E on the front passenger side. It also looks as though the wiring is bad throughout with badly cracked insulation. I also installed a new cap, rotor, and plug wires. What can I do to start this thing up? I am wondering if it is other wiring in the ignition circuit or all the vacuum lines not connected to the pollution stuff (although all vacuum ports on the carb and manifold tree are plugged). Any bright ideas or should I tow it to the junk yard? Sorry this was long and Thanks for any help anyone can give. |
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| Author: | Bruce Johnson [ Sat Dec 28, 2002 8:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | before you do off it |
Hows the sheet metal, the frame,the glass and all the other stuff that normaly endures three decades? You bought a old car, if its fairly straight you got a bargain, regardless of drive train and wireing problems.assuming that rust and collision damage is not a problem, I would rip out all the wireing and gauges and start fresh. Engines can be built and some people don't really desire stock interiors, a more relliable, race orientated machine can allways be made out of less than to restore it to showroom quality. just my 2cents ,hope this helps, Bruce Johnson |
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| Author: | Doctor Dodge [ Sun Dec 29, 2002 7:56 am ] |
| Post subject: | Troubleshoot Time |
Bruce has the right idea, I would start by by-passing all the ignition wiring with one simple hot wire to the "+" side of the coil. If it does not start with the hotwire connected, the problem is somewhere else. Sounds to me like the timing is off, may-be the timing mark on the damper is not right. Pull the #1 sparkplug and find TDC by feeling for the piston as it changes direction. Try to find 10 degrees *before* TDC. Now loosen the distributor and take the loose #1 sparkplug and stick it in the end of the plug wire and ground it to the head or block. Turn-on the ignition (or connect the hot wire) and reach down and rotate the distributor while you watch for a spark at the grounded plug tip. Snap, you should cross a place where the plug fires, you will see the spark jump the plug gap. Go back and forth with the distributor....snap-snap-snap, you will find the exact place to lock down the distributor, (right when the plug fires) again, the engine should be positioned 5-10 degrees BTDC. Fire the engine up and recheck with a timing light. Other questions: Is this hydraulic or mechanical valves? (adjusting screws on the rocker arms) Have you set all the valves so they close completely? If a valve job has been done but the valve have not been re-adjusted then you need to do that. Don't give up, this will run, you just need to "zero-in" on the problem. DD |
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| Author: | mszauner [ Sun Dec 29, 2002 10:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Thanks |
Thanks everyone. The rocker arms do not have adjusting screws. I kinda figured it still is electrical and/or timing. My thought was that since I need to entirely rewire the car, I might as well start rewiring and checking the engine electrical components and circuits first and see if that helps. Thanks for the additional info on the timing too. Any other hints would be greatly appreciated. We restored a 1950 Chevy pickup entirely and never had this kind of difficulties. |
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| Author: | GTS225 [ Sun Dec 29, 2002 11:52 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Hmmmmm I don't want to insult anybody, but have you tried a different/new ballast resistor, or maybe coil? I get the impression that the engine will turn over, but not fire up. I think I'd get it to running before I started re-wiring. Roger |
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| Author: | mszauner [ Sun Dec 29, 2002 12:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Good Idea |
Well, the coil was supposedly new from the last owner...but then again he also said he had put a rebuilt engine in when clearly it was a junk yard special. I was thinking checking each component..the ballast for proper resistance, the coil resistances etc. Why I suspect the ignition circuitry is that the engine turns over, it sparks and gets gas but it NEVER fires in the cylinders. I would think even if grossly out of time I would get a pop or two??? |
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| Author: | GTS225 [ Mon Dec 30, 2002 7:12 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
MSZ....you say you know it gets spark. Where, precisely, do you get spark from? Are you getting spark from the coil wire to ground? Do you also get spark through the gap in a plug? (I presume you've tried that trick of watching the plug outside of the cylinder). As for the assumption that you should get a pop out of a cylinder, no matter what, that's not entirely correct. The fuel/air ratio also need to be within a certain percentage "window" for combustion to occur. Too much fuel/air, no pop.....too much air/fuel, also no pop. This could be what's happening and causing you to go bald early. Roger |
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| Author: | mszauner [ Mon Dec 30, 2002 9:05 am ] |
| Post subject: | Thanks |
Well, I know I get spark for two reasons, when it turns over with the timing light attached, the light blinks. I also removed and grounded the plug and it sparked across the gap. Since I can readily smell gas after it cranks over a few times, perhaps I am getting too much? I do know the old electric choke controller is broken and I have been unable to find a replacement...Any ideas where I could locate one? |
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| Author: | Doc [ Mon Dec 30, 2002 1:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | More Stuff to Check... |
The spark has to happen at the correct moment, double check the timing and firing order. The plugs could be "washed-out" by all the cranking, you may want to try a "clean" set of plugs The valves could be hanging open, with the hydraulic lifter engines, the valve stem heights all have to be set correctly and somewhat even. Head milling, a thinner gasket or longer valve stem(s) will change the amount of "pre-load" on the lifter. Does the engine crank over evenly like it has compression in all the cylinders? Hove you redone your compression check? DD |
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| Author: | mszauner [ Mon Dec 30, 2002 1:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Update |
Thank you everyone for your continued help!! Here is where I am now. I took the multimeter and shop manual and checked the entire ignition circuit...I have never seen such a wiring mess...splices on splices, bare wires. Anyway, there is insufficient voltage to the positive side of the coil so I will rewire that. The primary coil resistance is way off but secondary is fine so will replace the coil. The ballast resistor checks out as does the ECU and wiring between the switch and ECU. I will probably replace all the under hood ignition circuit wiring and coil and try to start it again. Also, when the choke is closed, the high idle screw is not on the highest tang so it may be flooding that way. The plugs were new but I will probably at least clean and dry them before I try to start it up. I was going to redo the compression check but it should be at operating temperature for that and I need to start it. I may check it cold and see if I at least have something there. Thanks and keep those cards and letters coming. |
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| Author: | mszauner [ Mon Dec 30, 2002 5:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Another Update |
OK. I installed a new coil and completely rewired the ignition circuit. I also checked compression (cold engine since it won't start) and I have 125 pounds in each cylinder. The minimum should be 100 and the variance shouldn't be more than 10 pounds. Mine varied by a pound max. I also manually set the distributor timing as someone suggested by moving the distributor back and forth and watching for a spark. It still will not start. It appears that the number one cylinder is at TDC where the harmonic balancer indicates it should be. However, what should I use to actually be precise in knowing where it is?? Basically I suspect that either the balancer has somehow slipped in reference to the crank or it is getting too much gas. What puzzles me is that it worked fine before I did the heads except for the rough running from blown valves in two cylinders. I noticed that the choke closes down except for 1/16th of an inch but that is even in 60 degree weather like today. I do not have the electronic choke controller...any more suggestions? Thanks. |
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| Author: | Loghead [ Mon Dec 30, 2002 8:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Don't be insulted... |
...but how much spark plug gap do you have? Nobody else asked so I figger... |
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| Author: | mszauner [ Tue Dec 31, 2002 7:13 am ] |
| Post subject: | Reply |
Gap is at .035...Here is something else. The manual says the voltage at the positive end of the coil should be close to the battery voltage. This wires comes out of the ballast resistor so the voltage should be slightly lower. The resistance at all points on the ballast checks out per specks but the voltage at the positive end of the coil is 5-6 volts. Also, when I ran a wire directly from the positive side of the battery to the positive side of the coil as suggested here and reconnected the battery ground (key was off), the battery ground sparked. I now suspect the control unit. I bought a new ballast resistor for 2 bucks and a control unit and new plugs. This will mean the entire ignition circuit will be new. Also, when I checked for spark, I had spark but I am not sure it was hot enough, especially to start a cold engine. I bought a spark tester to check that out. I will let you know if it runs tonight. Thank all of you again. I have been unable, until now, to find good sites for the Duster like the ones I had for the 50 Chevy Truck. |
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| Author: | Doctor Dodge [ Tue Dec 31, 2002 8:18 am ] |
| Post subject: | Finding TDC, Compression Stroke... |
The more you tell us the more I think the distributor is out of time. You need to double check that by cranking the engine with #1 spark plug removed, feel for the compression stroke, (put your finger over the hole) then come up to the TDC mark. Stick something throught the sparkplug hole and "feel" for the piston head as you rock the engine back and forth. You should be able to get pretty close to TDC. Position the engine a little before TDC and do the "static timing" check, watching for the spark. DD |
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| Author: | mszauner [ Tue Dec 31, 2002 6:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Timing mark question |
My harmonic balancer has 3 "notches" in it. Which is the one to use when lining up with the timing marks. I was of the impression that the notch by the detent on the balancer was the correct one because that's how it looks in the manual, plus I figured that was how the magnetic timing light sensed the correct position. However, when I line up with that mark, both valves are closed but it seems a bit off of the highest piston point (although I am having a hard time getting the right object in there to "feel with". BTW, I also went ahead and replaced the timing sprockets and chains since I had it all opened to check it anyway, the chain was slightly stretched and it and the sprockets showed minor wear. The front seal and timing cover gasket was also leaking and needed to be replaced. Actually, there are no gaskets in this car, it is all Permatex...I guess that's the West Texas way to do it. |
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