My 72 Dart has a long history of service. It was doing fine this past year until July 31. Luckily, the car was parked in the garage when this episode began. On that day the car turned over fine but would not start.

Tried all the things I've read about. New plugs first, then wires, cap, rotor, ignition coil. Plenty of fuel but suspect spark.

Anyway a local mechanic came by took a look. He said that he's 90% sure that the timing chain skipped a link.

I decided then to replace the timing set. When I got the timing cover and balancer off I noticed that the old chain and gears appeared to be in good condition, but the chain was loose. The job was rather arduous. I went through all the steps and finally finished the job after a week (had to find a replacement timing cover as the existing one's oil seal recess was distorted).



Anyway, with the new timing set in, I discovered that the basic timing now looks to be right on. Because when I installed the harmonic balancer over the timing cover, the timing marks lined up.

Made a mistake after finishing assembling the front of the engine back together and refilling the oil and coolant.

Unrelated to anything, I decided that I would move the wires connecting to the alternator from above the heater hoses to below the heater hoses. Instead of pulling its spade, I unscrewed the little bolt to one of the wires. A little spring came out and I quickly realized that I should not have undone that bolt. I pushed in the little spring and put the little bolt back in, removed the spade like I should have done in the first place, and relocated those wires connected to the alternator.

This was late Saturday night after I had been working on it for 8 hours. I was tired but glad to have put the car back together. I was ready to retire but I couldn't resist just a quick try to see if it fires up. Cranked it but it did not start.

Sunday I decided I would now use a timing gun. I hooked up the remote starter button, and grounded the timing gun and hooked it up into the #1 cylinder.

Turned the igntion key to on.

Heavy thick smoke immediatedly! I quickly turned the ignition off and saw to my dismay that that wire to the alternator had cooked violently. And you can see that it melted a track in the wiring harness all the way to the bulkhead connect. To the alternator there is a green wire, a black wire and a blue wire. The blue wire is the one that was fried.

So, now I have a damaged harness for sure. Its visible - bare copper wire strands appearing through the melted black tape.


Still wanting to check the timing though, I disconnected that wire and went ahead with the test. with the timing gun I discovered I only had to move the distributor a little bit to get the marks lined up TDC.

But...the car still does not start! I'm a Dodge Dart owner whose been relegated to the bus.

During the tests that were done involving turning the ignition key to on, I noticed that the ignition lamp on the dash never comes on. It must be burnt out?

Welcome on the board. Wish it were under better circumstances.

Oof. A lot of damage can happen very quickly when you are working without a basic knowledge of what you are touching. I don't say that as a slam or a personal attack on you, but if you are describing things in terms that sound like "the screw near the wire and there was a little spring thing", then you were in way over your head. We're happy to help, but asking and answering individual questions about this wire or that bolt on a forum like this cannot substitute for a basic knowledge of how the car works. Immediately, without delay, get the three books in this thread and start reading.

It sounds like you removed one of the alternator brushes, which then flew apart and you didn't quite get all the pieces when you put it back together. Specifically, I think you missed one or more insulators. When you reinstalled the screw (without the insulating washer or the complete brush insulator housing), you created a direct short to ground from the voltage regulator to the alternator housing. ZAP, instant barbecued wires as soon as you turned the key to the "on" position. Voltage regulator is probably toast, too, and possibly the alternator diodes, the fusible link, and other wires in the engine compartment wiring harness. Depending on the extent of the damage, you'll either need to repair the fried wires and replace the damaged components (with good quality parts which you can no longer buy at the parts store...make your shopping list and post it here), or you'll need to install a new engine compartment wiring harness (which can be had in good quality for a reasonable price from Evans Wiring) and replace the damaged components.

As for why the engine won't fire: Can't tell right now because a substantial chunk of the electrical system is out of commission. What caused the initial no-start? Can't tell until the electrical system is repaired and we can do proper diagnosis. I raise my eyebrows at the mechanic's guess about the timing chain, unless the chain was loose enough to be picked off the installed sprockets. Guessing is usually not a fast, effective, or affordable way to proceed when the car won't run.

Your comments about the timing being right on because the timing marks lined up doesn't make sense; there are basics of timing that you appear not to understand. And even if you were checking the timing with reference to not just the timing marks but the distributor (which you have to do, otherwise you can't tell anything about the timing), the timing mark can and often does slip relative to the inner hub of the crank pulley with age and miles, so a check to find actual TDC on the frontmost cylinder is needed in mysterious cases of "timing looks right but engine won't run". Furthermore, even if the timing was adjusted correctly before the engine quit, the timing will have changed substantially by your having replaced the timing chain and sprockets.

So...we will help as much as we can, but you've got a great deal of homework to do.

_________________
一期一会
Too many people who were born on third base actually believe they've hit a triple.

You might have lost the insulater washer that was under the screw. It has a shoulder that the brush holder fits on.

Richard

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Part of Tyrde-Browne Racing

Thanks much for the response to my Dart story.

Slant Six Dan....I used my 1972 dodge service manual to guide me when I installed the timing set.

When I finished the gears lined up as the picture in the manual showed.

I put the old timing cover on with a couple of bolts and put the vibration dampener on real lightly and saw that the mark on the pulley lined up with the timing cover.

After this, I removed the valve covers to see if the marks were lined up with the #6 or the #1. It was lined up on #6, so I went all the way around. Observed that when I was approaching the marks again the #6 valves were moving. So I was satisfied that my TDC reflected the #1 cylinder.

At that point I installed the distributor with the rotor pointing to 4:00.

Now, since I used a timing gun (while cranking the engine), and the timing light is showing that the marks are lined up at TDC, doesn't that confirm that the basic timing is okay?

By the way, I had read about the balancer assembly slipping. I'm finding out about a lot of new things reading through the copious amounts of posts found here. I elected to NOT use that huge bolt to secure the vibration dampener because the books calls for 135 foot pounds. The only way I could think of putting that much force on the bolt without the engine turning would be to put a long fat pipe under one of the three bolts on the pulley. And that might damage the assembly.

Besides - there was no bolt when I took it off. I bought the bolt at the hardware store and it came in handy for turning the engine.

Oh - the electric problem.....I've got lots more reading to do. I don't know what to do first!

Okay, the 72 Dart...
SINCE I have to work full time, I only have a little time each day to devote to my Dart. Anyway, July 31 the 72 dart wouldn't start.
It had been running smoothly and NEVER overheated even on hot days in stop and go traffic.

I went through turmoil over the last 40 days; after having two guys more knowledgeable than me try their hand at getting it started, it turns out that the sum of their efforts relegated me to the chore of replacing the timing set as the diagnosis was a skipped tooth.

I did that job and followed the manual. I also replace the water pump since it was accessible. The old water pump did not present any problems but you know...it looked old and ugly.

Okay, the 72 Dart...
SINCE I have to work full time, I only have a little time each day to devote to my Dart. Anyway, July 31 the 72 dart wouldn't start.
It had been running smoothly and NEVER overheated even on hot days in stop and go traffic.

I went through turmoil over the last 40 days; after having two guys more knowledgeable than me try their hand at getting it started, it turns out that the sum of their efforts relegated me to the chore of replacing the timing set as the diagnosis was a skipped tooth.

I did that job and followed the manual. I also replaced the water pump since it was accessible. The old water pump had not presented any problems but you know...it looked old and ugly.



As I had said in an earlier post, the timing chain WAS loose but both sprockets appeared fine as did the chain. I installed a new Cloyes set.

My best attempt to get the dots lined up (I have pictures) did not seem totally satisfactory as a line drawn between the two dots did'nt seem to exactly bisect the two sprockets in the center. But... when I loosely installed the old timing cover and the harmonic balancer, the timing marks lined up. So I installed everything back at that point.

But afterwards, the car still would not start. I discovered that when the ignition switch was on there was no power going to the coil. The switch would crank the engine though.

And I could not get it started bypassing the switch.

Anyway, today I DID get the car started, this was after I bought a new condenser and fuel filter (the only two things that weren't new). I had to use a remote starter and I hooked up a wire from pos battery to brown side of the ballast to the + ignition coil .
It was hard to start, but using a few drops of starting fluid, it finally started and stayed running. I let it run for 15 minutes. It did not die.

But it sounds rough, there's a hammering sound in the valve covers. I think my cold valve last adjustment session was a bust!

Worse though...I went down and looked at the bottom of the timing cover and noticed WATER drops coming out the bottom of the timing cover. Also ominous was the fact the engine was running considerably hotter than in the past. I went in the car, turned the ignition swith to on and all the gauges sprung to life. Temp gauge 3/4 to the hot. This car used to run in stop and go traffic on 90 degree days and only be 1/4 to the hot.


I'll relate some other observations here. The ignition switch. My 1972 Service manual - the Electical section never mentions how to replace it. But the steering section shows how its buried in steering wheel hell. Found this after I bought a new ignition swith and the pullers (wheel and lock plate). Step A was to remove the horn pad. Couldn't do it. I read that you should be able to pull it out with bare hands, but apparently I'm not strong enough. I certainly don't want to break anything related to the steering wheel and the looks of the job is to me intimidating! Looks more like a job for a locksmith.

Also, the new ignition switch is a Wells. The red and black wires are separate for some reason. Don't know why its not like the original.

One other thing - I've read a lot of threads here and they always seem to be missing the endings! Problems are presented. some suggestions are proferred and the thread ends.

The ignition switch R&R really isn't very difficult. You won't have any use for the lock plate tool you bought; the lock plate is held in place by a simple roll pin which you drive out with a pin punch after removing the collar that surrounds it. See here for play-by-play. Once the lockplate's off, you will see a very small hole staring you in the face. Put a thin rod (straightened-out paperclip, tiny screwdriver, something like that) in that hole and push on it while you turn the key to the "Start" position and hold it there while pulling the key. Obviously you will have first disconnected the battery ground cable. The lock cylinder will come out the side of the column, then you can R&R the ignition switch.

I'm not too keen on Wells' stuff, but it's a fairly good bet all the current-production switches are coming from one place any more. Red & black are separate because different year cars that take the same switch have different connector housing configurations (one single, two separate, etc.) There should be an instruction sheet with the switch advising what to do about it, but perhaps that got "cost controlled" out of the package. Put together the new so it mates with the old.

Water out of timing cover: Probably "just" a leak from your water pump R&R not sealing properly. Check all bolts and if still leaking, then you need new water pump gaskets and R&R it again.

Engine overheating: I don't think your ignition timing is correct. It's also possible your cam timing isn't correct. Lining up dots, even when you get them to line up, is a crapshoot at best...and yours didn't line up.

_________________
一期一会
Too many people who were born on third base actually believe they've hit a triple.

Well, a couple days ago I talked about how the 72 dart finally ran after a 40 day non-starting drought. But that it ran loud and hotter than usual. Also that it was leaking water from the bottom of the timing gear & oil pan.

Well, when I looked down there while the engine was running it looked exactly like water. But then...there is only green antifreeze in the engine.
The leak is oil - it just that I forgot that I had fresh oil in the car.

I am confident that my gasket job was excellent - I have a very good leak free track record. I used mylar 819 on both sides of the gasket, positioned the dowels with no problems. Tightened the bolts gradually till all of them were at the specified 200 inch pounds.

The water pump does not leak at all. Now, this timing cover I purchased used from Wildcat Mopar in Oregon. I did so because the nosepiece area of my engine's timing cover looked a little corrupted. As if someone had taken a flat round punch and hammered hard, in three places.

Well, the "new" timing cover certainly appeared to match exactly. The folks at Wildcat made sure to give me a 72 dart swinger timing cover (they called me to confirm).

Perhaps I could have used a thicker gasket? Maybe the replacement cover has some slight hard to perceive differences, having been living on a different engine until now?

Well, the loudness of the valves prompted me to take off the valve cover. Man I HATE that job more than almost any other, both taking it off and putting it on. My car has the a/c line crossing it, and the heater hoses get in the way, either in back or in front; there are other obstructions, and then there's that weird angle.

Anyway I got the valve cover off only to find two pushrods leaning and not in line with the rocker arms. I pulled them out and they weren't bent. It was the #2 and #5 exhaust push rods. Now, I'm not SURE that I did not cause it to be like that from removing the valve cover but I hope that that is why the engine ran so loudly.

Now, IF when I installed the new timing set, would the car even have started if it was off by a tooth? Not only started but ran 15 minutes without dieing?

So, my next step I decided is to re-check those valve lashes (have to do it cold), then I will start it again and try to do that "hot" adjustment while the car is running.

Of course, the car will probably be leaking oil like crazy while its running.

What is so strange though is this: the car did not leak oil from that timing cover while it was sitting there, filled with oil for a month. But as soon as it was running, the rivulets were busy oozing out for the duration of the run. I cleaned that clean slick oil off the surface of the garage floor yesterday. And it was a lot!

Track record does not apply here—a gasket joint either leaks or it doesn't, no matter whether the installer has 5 minutes or 5 decades of experience.
I hesitate to imagine what you had to pay for it.
I guess you could have doubled up on this gasket, or used Hylomar or Copper-Coat (or Indian Head gasket shellac if you're a masochist) but did you check the replacement cover for seal surface flatness? And are you sure the leak is coming from the T-cover gasket and not from the front or front-corner area of the oil pan gasket where it seals (or not) to the bottom of the T-cover? Or from the front crank seal (which you did replace, right?)?
No. It doesn't work that way. Either it's straight or it's bent.
Put in new heater hoses -- make them slightly longer so you have enough slack in them to R&R the valve cover.
Depends which direction it was off. But yes, it could.
The oil level in the pan does not rise to the level of the T-cover.

_________________
一期一会
Too many people who were born on third base actually believe they've hit a triple.

Slant Six Dan jolted my memory to the travails I had with the timing cover oil seal.

Wildcat Mopar sent me a used timing cover and it had no oil seal. They charged $45 plus $15 shipping. But the used cover had a perfect oil seal cavity with no oil seal to have to remove.

The service manual calls for a tool C-3506 to both remove the old seal and to install the old seal. Further, it specifies that there should be no more than .0015 clearance between the neoprene and the face of the cover.

But who has tool C-3506? Not me. I brought the seal and cover to an auto shop. They put a metal disc that about the size of the seal and pressed it with a hand operated press.

I made some measurements after this job and they were far far from the manual's specifications. .0015 gap? Way more of a gap - but the gap also was not uniform - more in some spots but I think the .010 feeler fit at all areas.

So the gap is much bigger than specified. I didn't like it, but to the naked eye the seal looked good. Maybe not good enough; if the leaking is because of faulty oil seal installation though, I'm surprised I haven't heard other complaints. Don't most people just hammer the seal in "best that they can?"

$45 + $15 = ouch. Yep, that's Wildcat! :-\

Yes, most people remove and replace the seal without any kind of special tools, and with good success (no leak). Sounds like maybe they installed the wrong seal. Right seal or wrong, here's hoping they installed it right way round (lip points rearward toward the engine, not frontward toward the radiator).

_________________
一期一会
Too many people who were born on third base actually believe they've hit a triple.

Early this summer, I had a harrowing experience with my 72 Dart. The oil light was going on intermittently. Checking the oil showed "full." While the oil light was going on, the car was running very good and not getting hot at all. However, this oil light situation was continuing for days, so I decided to change the oil (even though it had been changed in April).

A little less than a quart of oil came out. Turns out the dipstick that I bought was too long and it was kind of folding on the bottom of the oil pan giving illusory readings.

To prevent this from happening again, I cut off the right amount of length from this dipstick.

IN July, it was hot here. I used the Dart though to go to work and back (15 miles each way). The car ran smooth and cool. Not much power though from a stop. And not very good gas mileage, like 14 mpg. I was feeling relieved that the oil light situation did not do noticeable damage as the car was performing as it had been before.

But then July 31 it wouldn't start and the situation was diagnosed as hopeless timing. So I tackled the job of replacing the timing chain as recounted earlier in this thread.

Well, to make a long story short, the car is running now but its making a knocking (hammering?) sound and though its idling pretty gently, it dies a lot when put in gear and has very low power. I'm wondering if these problems could be delayed reaction to the ABUSE I accidentally adminstered to this car.

I brought the car to my local mechanic and he told me "its not worth fixing."

I think he came to that conclusion because there is some ugly going on with the car. The vinyl top has a patch missing. The front left fender is dented. And, the lower part of the firewall is pretty rusty.

I'm attached to the car though. Its a highly optioned slant six 72 Dart Swinger and I'm the 3rd owner. I paid $240 for it in 1991 and it had 87,000 miles on it. I spent many hours working on the car, painted it in the garage (1994). That took a long time!

The car was put on ice though, in the fall of 2000. That was a discouraging time. In August 2000, I purchased 5 new goodyear tires (even the spare!), I ordered new rear springs from Year One and had them installed. The car was running beautifully.

But that same month, a lady pulled out of her spot on the street at the exact time I was traveling close to the parked cars because of a stopped car on the other side. Her car got peeled like a sardine car and my car sustained a mashed left front corner and fender damage, plus a little hood damage. Then a few weeks later, the power steering went out. Before that was fixed, within a week...the passenger side torsion bar spun through its anchor.

So the car was put in the garage and ignored by me. My attention was busy with work and kids in school.

Anyway, last year the car was brought out: I found that the engine started right up and ran good. Rust Auto Technicians sold me a torsion bar anchor plate. I brought the car to a good shop and they fixed the torsion bar and the power steering. Didn't fix the body damage yet though. Right now, there's bigger fish to fry. The car is barely mobile!

What is/are your question/s? Whether to fix the car, how to fix it...?

_________________
一期一会
Too many people who were born on third base actually believe they've hit a triple.