Slant Six Forum :: A Question About Timing An HEI Distributor

Is there a way to set Lorrie's Damper to TDC without the Engine running, and then turn the Distributor so that it would be firing the Number One Spark Plug?

Take an old distributor cap and drill a 3/8" hole between the centerpost and the #1 post...loosen the bolt (or both if you need more throw) roll the engine to TDC and adjust the distributor to suit.

If you aren't sure if your damper has slipped, you will have to use the 'wire' or chop stick method: http://www.slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic ... =chopstick -D.Idiot

With an electronic ignition distributor there is no way to see exactly when the rotor is pointing at the #1 plug tower terminal unless the motor is running and a timing light is used.

Why not just use a timing gun? That is more accurate and much easier than peering through a hole in the distributor cap.

I am getting over a nasty flu bug that has been kicking my butt, but otherwise I have been good.

I have been putting off replacing the timing chain cover gaskets on my 89 Ford van since it is such a pisser and I have been sick.

Centrifugal advance should not be an issue if the motor is idling down where it should be in the 700-750 RPM range.

If you have at least one "heavy" spring in the distributor, then there should be no centrifugal advance until around 900 RPM at the earliest.

I suppose the closest you could get to finding true TDC on the distributor would be to line up the reluctor tooth that fires under the #1 plug tower to the pickup, mark the side of the distributor with whiteout under the leading edge of the #1 cap terminal, and then install the distributor with the motor at true TDC on the compression stroke and rotate the distributor until the leading edge of the rotor is above the leading edge of the white-out on the distributor. Still, I would expect that method to have at least a 5 degree margin of error, if not more.

Already have a cut-away Distributor Cap. Also have a Piston Stop. But what I am wanting to achieve is for the Distributor to fire Number One Piston at EXACTLY Top Dead Center.

Is it possible to ruin Spark Plugs if the Engine floods?

this is a brand NEW Mopar Distributor

That there was a flu epidemic going on was all over the news a while back. Haven't heard much about it recently though. The conventional wisdom is that one needs to get plenty of rest, and drink lots of liquids.

Have to take off the Water Pump and the Damper to get the Timing Chain Cover off, right?

Lorrie Engine isn't running at ALL, and hasn't run since early November!

Don't have the slightest idea why she won't start.

This is the SECOND time I have gotten the flu this year, and I even got my flu shot.

You are having some unusual intermittent running failure issues. Are you sure the problem is ignition related?

you will either set the base/initial per the model of vehicle it came out of,

Only if you hydrolocked the cylinders (at that point the rods and pistons would be in trouble and the engine would not even roll over), but I doubt you dumped that much gas down the carb.

I'd pull them and see what they look like, you can ruin plugs by running too lean, detonation, too close to the piston, garbage in the chamber.

you can also foul them if the carb is too rich and they may not spark so well.

What part number OEM distributor did you get?

It will have a tag fastened to it with one of the screws.

Didn't get the HEI System out of another vehicle

You got the 'new' mopar EI distributor that was destined for another vehicle originally (not curved for your specific vehicle or pre-1973 anything):

NEW-OEM what's the tag number on it? (3874876-factory for 1978 Volare, factory set at 12BTDC initial 3755042-1973-74 Dodge Dart with an automatic, factory set to TDC)

I might have the manual with the timing curve for you to look at to save some time on mapping if you got it from Old Car Parts.

That being said, you do have spark

and if the distributor is correctly installed,

and you pulled the plugs and verified the electrodes look good and the gap is correct?

Then I'd be looking at timing chain issues next...if you replaced the timing chain recently (less than a few years back),

then fuel should be next on the list ( pull the fuel line off the carb and put into a small can and crank and make sure there is a good amount being pumped.

If that's good, carb would be the next suspect.

Just not starting sounds like timing chain since the mopar EI pickup is very 'finicky' compared to points and may not fire if the timing wobbles too much...(you can always 'retrofit' the system back to points and install your old distributor to see if it fires up with it if you have more time.). D.Idiot

Author:	JCAllison [ Thu Feb 07, 2013 7:04 am ]
Post subject:	A Question About Timing An HEI Distributor
Hey All, In the past couple of months have installed a NEW Autolite 4100 Carburetor on Ms. American's (the ONLY 1964 Ford Galaxie 500, Four-Door, Hard-Top, Fast-Back, Police Interceptor that Google finds on the whole World Wide Web) 390 CID FE V8. After setting up the Carburetor, it was time to tune the NEW Engine/Carburetor combination. Upon starting the process, it was found that the Vacuum Advance Assembly (VAA) in the Distributor was non-functional, and so a NEW VAA was installed. Then an effort to ascertain the Curve in the Distributor was made. The following is the process by which we found out how many degrees of Centrifugal Advance were being caused by the Springs&Weights in the Distributor. With a Timing Light and a Tachometer connected to the Engine running at an 850 RPM Idle, the Timing Light showed 12 Degrees of Advance. The Engine speed was increased 100 RPM and another Timing Light reading was taken. The Engine speed was again increased 100 RPM and another Timing Light reading was taken. This was done till more RPMs didn't result in more advance. The Centrifugal Advance was all in at 32 Degrees BTDC, which is just fine. BUT, it was all in by 1,400 RPM which is NOT fine. The conclusion was that either the Springs have lost their tension, maybe broken, or come loose from the Weights. The next step was to find out how much advance the Centrifugal Advance was able to add. There was no way to tell because the Centrifugal System MAY have been adding advance at idle. So here is what was done to set the Baseline Timing without the Centrifugal Weights being involved. The Engine was turned by hand till the Damper Indicator said 8 Degrees BTDC. [NOTE: The FSM specifies the Initial Timing on this Engine is 4 Degrees BTDC at the Distributor, which would be 8 Degrees BTDC at the Damper] With the Damper set at 8 Degrees BTDC, the Distributor Rotor pointed at the Number One Cylinder's Spark Plug Tower, a Test Light connected to the "-" of the Battery, and the Distributor Hold Down Bolts was loosened. The Probe of the Test Light was placed on the connector to which the Condenser connects, and the Distributor moved. The Test Light would come on when the Points would open. It would go out when the Points went closed. The Distributor was positioned to where the Test Light would come on and go off at the slightest of touches, and the Distributor was tightened down. At THAT point the Distributor was accounting for 8 Degrees BTDC of advance, with none of it being added by the Centrifugal Weights. The Engine was then started, and it was found that the Centrifugal Advance was adding 24 Degrees of advance by 1,400 RPM. Alright, with THAT said, here is how this all relates to Lorrie Van Haul's MIGHTY 225 Slant Six Engine: As you may or may not know, Lorrie has had installed the HEI System recommended here at the Slant Six Forum. At this point, I would like to set Lorrie's Distributor in the same manner as Ms. American's Distributor was set. BUT, seeing as to how the HEI Distributor doesn't have any Points to check to see when they are opening and closing. QUESTION: Is there a way to set Lorrie's Damper to TDC without the Engine running, and then turn the Distributor so that it would be firing the Number One Spark Plug? [NOTE: The Specification for Initial Timing on a 1967 225 Slant Six is that it should be set at TDC.] And if there is, where would one connect the Test Light and where would one touch the Distributor with the Test Light Probe to determine when the Distributor would fire to Cylinder Number One? Any information would be greatly appreciated. JC

Author:	DusterIdiot [ Thu Feb 07, 2013 7:21 am ]
Post subject:	That was the hard way to do it...
Quote: Is there a way to set Lorrie's Damper to TDC without the Engine running, and then turn the Distributor so that it would be firing the Number One Spark Plug? Take an old distributor cap and drill a 3/8" hole between the centerpost and the #1 post...loosen the bolt (or both if you need more throw) roll the engine to TDC and adjust the distributor to suit. If you aren't sure if your damper has slipped, you will have to use the 'wire' or chop stick method: http://www.slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic ... =chopstick -D.Idiot

Author:	JCAllison [ Thu Feb 07, 2013 7:57 am ]
Post subject:	Re: That was the hard way to do it...
Quote: Take an old distributor cap and drill a 3/8" hole between the centerpost and the #1 post...loosen the bolt (or both if you need more throw) roll the engine to TDC and adjust the distributor to suit. Hey Mr. DI, Already have a cut-away Distributor Cap. Also have a Piston Stop. But what I am wanting to achieve is for the Distributor to fire Number One Piston at EXACTLY Top Dead Center. Quote: If you aren't sure if your damper has slipped, you will have to use the 'wire' or chop stick method: http://www.slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic ... =chopstick -D.Idiot The Damper is in perfect condition. Anyway, thanks for the response. JC

Author:	Reed [ Thu Feb 07, 2013 8:18 am ]
Post subject:
With an electronic ignition distributor there is not way to see exactly when the rotor is pointing at the #1 plug tower terminal unless the motor is running and a timing light is used. Why not just use a timing gun? That is more accurate and much easier than peering through a hole in the distributor cap.

Author:	JCAllison [ Thu Feb 07, 2013 8:59 am ]
Post subject:
Quote: With an electronic ignition distributor there is no way to see exactly when the rotor is pointing at the #1 plug tower terminal unless the motor is running and a timing light is used. Hey Reed, How have you been? Was just hoping that there WOULD be a way to be able to position the Distributor without being concerned that the Centrifugal Weights were being included in the mix. Quote: Why not just use a timing gun? That is more accurate and much easier than peering through a hole in the distributor cap. Was going to do THAT too, but wanted to set the Initial Timing without the Engine running to keep the Centrifugal Advance system from adding any advance. It was done on Ms. American's 390 FE V8 which has the standard Points&Condenser Ignition, and was hoping that the same thing could somehow be done with Lorrie's HEI System. If it can't be done, then it is onward to the next step. Will be getting back with you as the project proceeds. Hope YOU are well. JC

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Author:	Reed [ Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:18 am ]
Post subject:
I am getting over a nasty flu bug that has been kicking my butt, but otherwise I have been good. I have been putting off replacing the timing chain cover gaskets on my 89 Ford van since it is such a pisser and I have been sick. Centrifugal advance should not be an issue if the motor is idling down where it should be in the 700-750 RPM range. If you have at least one "heavy" spring in the distributor, then there should be no centrifugal advance until around 900 RPM at the earliest. I suppose the closest you could get to finding true TDC on the distributor would be to line up the reluctor tooth that fires under the #1 plug tower to the pickup, mark the side of the distributor with whiteout under the leading edge of the #1 cap terminal, and then install the distributor with the motor at true TDC on the compression stroke and rotate the distributor until the leading edge of the rotor is above the leading edge of the white-out on the distributor. Still, I would expect that method to have at least a 5 degree margin of error, if not more.

Author:	JCAllison [ Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:21 am ]
Post subject:
Quote: I am getting over a nasty flu bug that has been kicking my butt, but otherwise I have been good. Hey Reed, That there was a flu epidemic going on was all over the news a while back. Haven't heard much about it recently though. The conventional wisdom is that one needs to get plenty of rest, and drink lots of liquids. Quote: I have been putting off replacing the timing chain cover gaskets on my 89 Ford van since it is such a pisser and I have been sick. Have to take off the Water Pump and the Damper to get the Timing Chain Cover off, right? Quote: Centrifugal advance should not be an issue if the motor is idling down where it should be in the 700-750 RPM range. Well Reed, THAT is the next step. Getting Lorrie's MIGHTY 225 Slant Six to run at 700-750 RPM. Lorrie Engine isn't running at ALL, and hasn't run since early November! Don't have the slightest idea why she won't start. She was running just fine. We had been out and about the whole day. Drove her home, turned the Engine off, and everything was perfect. Went out the next day, which was the first really cold morning, and Lorrie would crank but she would start. Used some Starting Fluid, and that didn't even provoke a cough. Have checked to see if the Spark Plugs were getting Spark. They were ALL able to fire a fat Blue spark. Have checked and double checked everything, and still can't get Lorrie to fire up. So what I thought I'd do is begin from scratch, and go through everything again, starting with making sure that Lorrie's Initial Timing is 0 TDC, thus today's question. Someone said that it sounded as though the Engine was flooded, and that it THAT were the case, that it might have ruined the NGK ZFR5N Spark Plugs. Have acquired a new set but haven't installed them yet. Is it possible to ruin Spark Plugs if the Engine floods? Quote: If you have at least one "heavy" spring in the distributor, then there should be no centrifugal advance until around 900 RPM at the earliest. Well, this is a brand NEW Mopar Distributor so whatever Springs, and at whatever tension they are supposed to be, is what they are. Quote: I suppose the closest you could get to finding true TDC on the distributor would be to line up the reluctor tooth that fires under the #1 plug tower to the pickup, mark the side of the distributor with whiteout under the leading edge of the #1 cap terminal, and then install the distributor with the motor at true TDC on the compression stroke and rotate the distributor until the leading edge of the rotor is above the leading edge of the white-out on the distributor. Still, I would expect that method to have at least a 5 degree margin of error, if not more. See, that's what made doing this procedure with the Points Distributor in Ms. American so accurate. One sets the Damper at whatever number of Degrees desired, and then rocks the Distributor back and forth watching the Test Light. Where it goes from OFF to ON, and from ON to OFF, is EXACTLY at the number of Degrees desired. Anyway, am charging Lorrie's Battery, and am going to see, if after sitting for a couple of months, that maybe Lorrie will start up. Got any suggestions? JC

Author:	DusterIdiot [ Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:21 am ]
Post subject:	It won't...
Quote: Already have a cut-away Distributor Cap. Also have a Piston Stop. But what I am wanting to achieve is for the Distributor to fire Number One Piston at EXACTLY Top Dead Center. Actually you will want it to fire at TDC with the crank and rod positioned for the downward power stroke...if it fires TDC before they are in this position you'll get pinging. Using the cutout distributor you can set base timing to TDC...you can check the position by turning on the ignition wiht the engine not running, when the rotor is on the #1 tower the #1 plug will get the spark, per Reed when this lines up, the 'tooth' on the reluctor will also be aimed at the pickup. The tooth and pickup will send a signal to the EI box from it's two wires, and you can check the wire going from the EI module to the - side of the coil for the test light/multi meter (ignition has to be on). Once the distributor is spinning the weights will start to advance the plate, so your setting will be lost on engine startup, the only other ways to make it work would be to use a 1981-1987 ESC distributor (no advance mechanism), or take your dizzy apart and epoxy the slots shut (disabling the mechanism). That being said, if using a significantly improved system over the stock ignition the spark can have a tendency to 'jump' from rotor to tower as the rotor approaches it, thus you might have a 5 degree margin of error during operation anyway. As Reed specified you should not see mechancial advance while at idle...on a stock EI distributor you can shift this advance lower by moving the adjustable posts on the mainshaft causing less spring tension and having it come on sooner. Once you install an EI distributor into an older 'points' vehicle, the feild manual points spec goes out the window and is useless...you will either set the base/initial per the model of vehicle it came out of, or you will need to map or disassemble the dizzy and note what the governor and vacc. adva rms markings are to determine a safe place to start...even with a stocker 1974 distributor the advance is so heavy that you could start at 5 BTDC initial and still be OK overall... If you are just doing a map job...set the engine at #1TDC, position the distributor so rotor lines up with the #1 tower, lock it down and map per your previous experience at 100 rpm increments with the vacc. advance disconnected. -D.Idiot

Author:	DusterIdiot [ Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:27 am ]
Post subject:	Round 2
Quote: Is it possible to ruin Spark Plugs if the Engine floods? Only if you hydrolocked the cylinders (at that point the rods and pistons would be in trouble and the engine would not even roll over), but I doubt you dumped that much gas down the carb...I'd pull them and see what they look like, you can ruin plugs by running too lean, detonation, too close to the piston, garbage in the chamber...you can also foul them if the carb is too rich and they may not spark so well. Quote: this is a brand NEW Mopar Distributor What part number OEM distributor did you get? It will have a tag fastened to it with one of the screws. -D.Idiot

Author:	Reed [ Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:23 am ]
Post subject:
Quote: That there was a flu epidemic going on was all over the news a while back. Haven't heard much about it recently though. The conventional wisdom is that one needs to get plenty of rest, and drink lots of liquids. This is the SECOND time I have gotten the flu this year, and I even got my flu shot. Quote: Have to take off the Water Pump and the Damper to get the Timing Chain Cover off, right? Yep. It is a 351W. Quote: Lorrie Engine isn't running at ALL, and hasn't run since early November! Don't have the slightest idea why she won't start. Bummer! You are having some unusual intermittent running failure issues. Are you sure the problem is ignition related?

Author:	JCAllison [ Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:07 pm ]
Post subject:
Quote: This is the SECOND time I have gotten the flu this year, and I even got my flu shot. Hey Reed, Are you passing the flu around amongst the people around you? Quote: Yep. It is a 351W. Nice engine. Quote: You are having some unusual intermittent running failure issues. Are you sure the problem is ignition related? No. Don't know WHAT the problem is. Don't think it is the Ignition System, but wanted it to be set properly for further diagnosis. Found THIS: STATIC TIMING WITH ELECTRONIC IGNITION: Obviously, with the electronic set up you can't use methods which detect when the points open. The way to do go about static timing under these circumstances is: Mark the current distributor position, marking both distributor to clamp and clamp to block. This will allow you to reference whether the timing was out, and if so by how much. On the Lucas distributors used for XPAG, A,B and C series engines, 1mm at the distributor base is 6 deg on the crank so make sure the marks are clear! Set the crankshaft to the required static timing point with the rotor pointing towards no 1 plug lead Refit the distributor cap. Either attach your strobe light to no 1 plug lead, or (if you don't have a light) remove no 1 plug lead and fit a spare spark plug to it (with the body of the plug suitably grounded to the engine) Find the approximate position for the distributor by rotating the whole distributor fairly rapidly clockwise (ie opposite to the way to the rotor turns) until a spark appears (be it at the light or at the spare plug). You may have to rotate the distributor anticlockwise 20 or 30 deg first before doing so in order to ensure the timed position is covered on the clockwise sweep. Having noted the approximate position, refine the process by using a smaller angle of sweep centred on the approximate position and moving the distributor as slowly as it is possible to do yet still get a spark. Tighten the distributor clamp. This process may end up with a degree or two of extra advance. In engines with timing marks visible from the top, I would then check by rotating the crank and seeing what the pointers read when the spark appeared. However, this is a luxury for engines which still have the timing marks underneath! In any event, the right maximum advance usually results in more advance at static on a worn distributor. JC

Author:	JCAllison [ Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:25 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: It won't...
Quote: you will either set the base/initial per the model of vehicle it came out of, Hey Mr. DI, Didn't get the HEI System out of another vehicle. Am utilizing a Ford Coil, a Mopar Distributor, and a GM ECU w/ Heat Sink as recommended by Daniel. When it was installed originally, it started right up. It ran for about two months, and then one day Lorrie just wouldn't start, and she hasn't run since. As was mentioned previously, all the Spark Plugs fire when checked so am not suspecting that there is anything wrong with the HEI System, but at this point, what is wrong is unknown. JC

Author:	JCAllison [ Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:39 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Round 2
Quote: Only if you hydrolocked the cylinders (at that point the rods and pistons would be in trouble and the engine would not even roll over), but I doubt you dumped that much gas down the carb. Hey Mr. DI, The Engine turns over just fine. Quote: I'd pull them and see what they look like, you can ruin plugs by running too lean, detonation, too close to the piston, garbage in the chamber. Actually, the NGK ZFR5N Spark Plugs look brand new except for the Porcelain Tip being a light Tan color. Quote: you can also foul them if the carb is too rich and they may not spark so well. Am thinking that the comment about them having been flooded to the point to where they were ruined, is about fouling them, but when the Plugs were tested they fired just fine. Quote: What part number OEM distributor did you get? Have the Invoice from Old Car Parts, recommended by Daniel. It says: 1 - Distributor - 3874714 Quote: It will have a tag fastened to it with one of the screws. There was no Tag affixed to this unit. JC

Author:	DusterIdiot [ Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:51 pm ]
Post subject:	But...
Quote: Didn't get the HEI System out of another vehicle You got the 'new' mopar EI distributor that was destined for another vehicle originally (not curved for your specific vehicle or pre-1973 anything): -NEW-OEM what's the tag number on it? (3874876-factory for 1978 Volare, factory set at 12BTDC initial 3755042-1973-74 Dodge Dart with an automatic, factory set to TDC) I might have the manual with the timing curve for you to look at to save some time on mapping if you got it from Old Car Parts. That being said, you do have spark and if the distributor is correctly installed, and you pulled the plugs and verified the electrodes look good and the gap is correct? Then I'd be looking at timing chain issues next...if you replaced the timing chain recently (less than a few years back), then fuel should be next on the list ( pull the fuel line off the carb and put into a small can and crank and make sure there is a good amount being pumped. If that's good, carb would be the next suspect. Just not starting sounds like timing chain since the mopar EI pickup is very 'finicky' compared to points and may not fire if the timing wobbles too much...(you can always 'retrofit' the system back to points and install your old distributor to see if it fires up with it if you have more time.). -D.Idiot

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Author:	JCAllison [ Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:59 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: But...
Quote: You got the 'new' mopar EI distributor that was destined for another vehicle originally (not curved for your specific vehicle or pre-1973 anything): Hey Mr. DI, Alright. Quote: NEW-OEM what's the tag number on it? (3874876-factory for 1978 Volare, factory set at 12BTDC initial 3755042-1973-74 Dodge Dart with an automatic, factory set to TDC) 3874714 is the number on the invoice from Old Car Parts. Quote: I might have the manual with the timing curve for you to look at to save some time on mapping if you got it from Old Car Parts. It WAS acquired from Old Car Parts. Quote: That being said, you do have spark Yes. Quote: and if the distributor is correctly installed, It IS. Lorrie ran for about two months before deciding not to start back at the beginning of November 2012. Quote: and you pulled the plugs and verified the electrodes look good and the gap is correct? Yes. Everything is as it should be. Quote: Then I'd be looking at timing chain issues next...if you replaced the timing chain recently (less than a few years back), The Timing Chain has less than 25,000 miles on it. Quote: then fuel should be next on the list ( pull the fuel line off the carb and put into a small can and crank and make sure there is a good amount being pumped. There is a transparent Filter in the Fuel Line and the Fuel Pump is pumping just fine. Quote: If that's good, carb would be the next suspect. Right. It is a Bendix Stromberg Model W. GREAT Carburetor. Have checked the Acceleration Pump and it seems to be working just fine. But the strange thing is that even with a couple of spritzes of Starting Fluid, Lorrie's Engine doesn't even cough. Quote: Just not starting sounds like timing chain since the mopar EI pickup is very 'finicky' compared to points and may not fire if the timing wobbles too much...(you can always 'retrofit' the system back to points and install your old distributor to see if it fires up with it if you have more time.). D.Idiot Don't think that there is an issue with the Timing Chain. Am charging the Battery even as I type, and am going to try to start Lorrie up tomorrow morning. Will let you know how this goes. JC