OK, so my Dart was suddenly running a bit rough. I had gone through a ton of items, and finally, through the help of this wonderful board, figured it must be the ignition circuit, as Ted has had very similar symptoms.

It starts up, then after turning it off, one must crank it a lot to get it started again (although sometimes it starts immediately). Once started, it runs quite well (actually better than it ever has, after having changed out the wires, plugs, ECU, ballast resistor, voltage regulator, coil, cap, rotor, fuel pump). I noticed a couple times, it seemed to start just when I let off the starter, so this seemed to point toward the ignition circuit. The ECU is well grounded, and the system is charging.

Someone had relayed the issue that the wiring on the firewall connector sometimes gets corroded. I checked those today, and indeed many of the male blades and female connectors looked pretty bad, so I replaced all the connectors in the firewall connector block. Still same issue persists.

I did note that the previous owner(s) had played with the wires a bunch. There were various splices and wires going to nowhere, including one of the wires from the ECU plug. Keep in mind, this is how the wiring was prior to the issue, so I don't think that has bearing, but let me know if I'm wrong.

Any further thoughts on what this might be? Again, when cold, it starts right up the first time, then when I turn it off it has trouble starting back up. It's getting gas, fuel pressure is good, the electric chokes are working. After driving and warmed up, if I shut it off, it will most times immediately start up again, but if it sets for just a minute or two, then it's hard to start. Holding the pedal to the floor doesn't help, as when a car is flooded, so it seems like a spark issue. Once started it runs great at all speeds, idle through highway driving.

I don't think the timing has jumped, I put the timing light on it, and it was where it was previously. Also, I had installed a double timing chain, the engine only has 3000 miles on it. Could it be the distributor? I think D. Idiot had mentioned the wires going to the connector block from the distributor, but I changed all the connectors on the firewall. Maybe I should check the wires at the distributor?

Anyway, so tomorrow I'll change the female connectors to the back of the (new) ignition switch, perhaps there's a problem with those connections. Also, I'll check for spark during one of the cranking but not starting episodes.

This is driving me crazy.....I'm not an electrical guy, but I suppose I can dig into my '67 shop manual and figure out how to test the various electrical circuits. I don't have enough time right now, hoping someone has had this issue.

BG

OK, my spark checker deally came in the mail today, it doesn't have spark when cranking, periodically. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. During those longer cranking periods, it has spark right when I let off the key. I changed the connectors on the ignition switch, so it's getting good contact there.

I can do the Nascar bypass setup (thanks Ted), but given what I've already looked into and/or swapped out, what would one do next to fix the problem, besides bypassing the ignition circuit?

BG

Check the gap on the reluctor in the distributor (.008")

_________________
Ed
64 Valiant 225 / 904 / 42:1 manual steering / 9" drum brakes

And use a NON magnetic feeler gauge, brass is good. I have gotten good results using a plain business card. Most that I've checked seem to be between .008 & .010. check each reluctor point clearance to the pickup, in case the dist. shaft is bent, reluctor loose whatever.

BC

_________________
'64 Dart GT convertible, 64 Dart 170 2-door post sedan in faded blue and rust (the Az Dart) & a sixty THREE Dart 170 2-door post sedan in faded blue and rust. (future project)
Early Dart Disorder (EDD) is real, and I've got it!

So does the reluctor gap change/go bad due to wear? I can check that for sure.

If I find that it's not 0.008, I assume there is an adjustment or do I need to replace the distributor?

Thanks so much, never had a distributor go bad before...my old '70 Valiant (225) ran for 20 years without a hitch....and then I (mistakenly) sold it to an old lady...she wrecked it two weeks later....so sad.

If it turns out I need to change the distributor, do I just put the button (shaft slot) on the new one in the same place as the old one and swap out? Is it that simple?

Thanks so much everyone, I'll make sure my yearly contribution to the Forum is a bit bigger this year....

BG

Also, I noticed when I had the timing light on it, the timing mark seemed to jump around....this also suggests you're correct, the reluctor gap (shaft alignment?) might well be the issue...

Can't wait to test the assumption.

bg

I once saw a problem like that that was due to a flaky 5-pin connector to the ECU; it looked good, but didn't quite always make good contact. The temporary fix was to stuff a big of aluminum foil into the hole to make contact.

I pulled that connector a few times, the female sockets look clean and tight, the wires seem in good shape, but you never know.

I'll check out the gap on the reluctor first, if that doesn't do it, then I might revisit that 5 pin connector on the ECU, thanks a bunch.

BG

OK, so my saga continues...Dart runs fine once started, but I have an ignition issue, no spark sometimes. At last we left off, the thought was the distributor reluctor gap. Indeed, I checked the distributor, the gap on the reluctor was about 0.020, so I set to 0.008 as indicated. Thought for sure that would solve the problem....no, still the car has the hard starting issue.

The latest is, it starts immediately when cold but otherwise cranks and cranks until it eventually starts. It doesn't have spark during these long cranking periods, as I checked with a spark tester....otherwise runs fine once started. Timing isn't the issue, it's spark. Also, once running it's charging normally.

I unhooked and put a voltmeter to the wiring going to the ballast, the ign#1 circuit has 12 volts when the starter is on the first position, with the key in the start position (while the starter cranks) the #2 ignition wires don't have any voltage. So, it appears there's something wrong under the dash. I replaced all the connectors in the firewall connector block, and tested the wires from the ECU to the coil, ballast etc. They are all sound, it appears electrical connectivity under the hood and at the firewall is all good. I will ground the ECU with a wire to the negative battery terminal, but I don't believe ground there is the issue.

Does anyone have any ideas as to what might be the problem? As it stands, I have replaced the spark plugs (correctly gapped), distributor (correctly gapped), plug wires, coil, cap and rotor, ECU, ballast resistor and voltage regulator (these were old anyway, but clearly weren't the issue). Recall, I also changed the ignition switch, and replaced the female connectors to that as well, so that's a sound electrical connection. Must be between the ignition switch and the dash circuit? I'm not an electrical guy, so I'm guessing, maybe there's a short in there somewhere?

Any advice is greatly appreciated. Anyone on the board solves this for me, and my yearly donation to the board increases dramatically....I absolutely love my Dart but I'm losing my patience with it.

BG

Which spark tester are you using? What type of voltmeter- analog or digital? What ignition system do you have- is it Chrysler electronic ignition? 4 or 5 pin ecu? (2 or 4 pin ballast resistor?)
I understand you replaced lots of parts on your car, but I wasn't clear on whether or not you replaced the distributor & pickup assembly or not.

Now (going from memory here)- a stock chrysler ignition switch like yours has several circuits: Red (battery power in), Black (accessory), Dark Blue (ignition run), Yellow (starter), Brown (bypass).

What should happen is that the ign run ckt (Blue) should have battery voltage with the key in "run" position. A fully charged battery should read about 12.6V "key off", slightly less in "run" with eng off, 13.5-14.5V eng running & 10-11V cranking. The ign ecu, ballast resistor, & alternator regulator should have battery V . The ign coil + should have less because it goes through the ballast (10V or so? I don't recall the details)- it limits power to the coil so it won't overheat & fail.

When you turn the key to "start" the ign switch applies power to bypass (Brown) & then starter (Yellow). The idea is is that battery voltage drops when the starter operates- so if the voltage at the coil is too low then spark will be too weak to fire the plugs (sound familiar?)- it would be worse hot because a hot coil has higher resistance & less output. The bypass ckt applies battery V direct to coil + while cranking to increase output.

Right now I want to do a test on the run & bypass circuits. Unplug the ballast resistor & the ecu. Connect your voltmeter red lead to coil + & black to eng ground. You should have 0V with key in "run" & near battery V while in "start". Connect red lead to ignition power ckt at ecu (Blue/yellow wire that goes directly to Blue wire at ballast resistor connector) You should read near battery V in "run" & in "start" positions.

_________________
63 Valiant Wagon
225 - 4 bbl

'67 Dart 270,

Have you hot wired your car yet? In other words, installed the ignition switch? by running a new hot wire from the battery to the lighted toggle switch, then out to the coil?
It might be over kill but you could run a new wire from the coil back to the ECU to make sure it is getting a full 12 volts.

After doing that then there is no excuse for it not to run. You could run jumpers temporarily just to prove it....then wire it so it looks nice. I run a 3 ohm Pertronix coil which eliminated the need of the ballast resistor so my car runs like this all the time.

This is a stupid proof set up as I hate ignition problems....I drive way too much and do not have patients for nonsense/car not starting.

Click on the red link below my name to view coil.

_________________
Aggressive Ted

http://cid-32f1e50ddb40a03c.photos.live ... %20Swinger


74 Swinger, 9.5 comp 254/.435 lift cam, 904, ram air, electric fans, 2.5" HP2 & FM70 ex, 1920 Holley#56jet, 2.76 8 3/4 Sure-Grip, 26" tires, 25+MPG

Thanks Ted,

Since I'm not an electrical guy, I was waiting for instructions to the hot wire, thanks for those. I've lost my patience, so yes, I'm going to buy my materials for the hot wire now....

BG

So, I hot wired the car, all new wires and connectors direct 12v from battery to coil, still the spark is really weak, hard to start. Bad Coil? Once it starts it runs ok, but I did note that if I put the direct 12v to it while runnnig, the spark is a lot stronger. The negative wire to the ECU has electrical connectivity, and I grounded the ECU to the negative of the battery.

This is a new coil, but perhaps a bad one? I'm at my wits end, still having the low spark issue, even with 12V running directly to the coil.. Should I try a new coil? Yet another ECU?

Last night I pulled the dash and cleaned all the connections there, traced the wires to and from ignition switch, no apparent damage anywhere.

Thanks all...

Brian

The battery was run pretty far down, so I'll try the experiment, hot wire, again after the battery is charged back up again...

So, I fully recharged the battery, but the Dart refuses to start easily. Once started, it is running well, charging, etc. Just hard to start, spark is the issue, as I put my handy dandy spark tester on one of the plugs and it barely registers spark during these episodes. When it does start, the spark tester shows a strong light to indicate the spark is back. Very strange, all last week it would start in the morning, cranking only a second or so before firing up. Then later in the day, I had to crank it long and hard before it would finally fire, but then it would run very well, no hesitation, smooth idle, excellent acceleration, etc. I drove it all week to work this way.

I'm really at a loss to figure out what this issue is. It started one day weeks ago, with the ECU. The car just died. I put in a new ECU and it ran great for about a week or so. Then this new issue has persisted for weeks. Could it be a bad ground or something, sapping the energy from the ignition system? How might I test for this? I recall during this new episode, that it was cranking and cranking, but no start. I installed a new coil, and it fired right up. Could there be something killing my coils/ECU's, like a short somewhere or a spurious ground?

I'm stumped. Besides trying my patience, my wife has begun to share her impatience with my Dart. This is serious...although she did recognize that I must really love this car to put up with this.

Thanks for any insights. I'll be driving my GM product to work again this week - doesn't that make anyone's Mopar blood boil?

BG