Ive restored a 1970 dodge dart. Underneath the hood, everything is refurbished or new altogether, and it looks awfully shiny. After hooking it all up, i turn the key and get... nothing at all. power works, as the interior light is on as well as the headlights. using a screwdriver, I can get a jump on the relay. The engine turned a fe,w times (slowly), but it wouldnt spark up, as there was no spark coming from the distributor cap. After replacing the relay, I havent been able to get it to spark with the ignition or with the screwdriver, and now I cant even get it to turn. using the screwdriver, i get one metallic click when i touch the relay.

This is where Ive been troubleshooting. Starters tested, passed. Batterys new. Coil is new. distributor is new. alternator is new. wires are thoroughly examined and hooked up correctly according to my chart.

Ive heard this is caused by a bad ground. with a double ground feed off the negative terminal, I attached one to the chassis next to the radiator and the other lead to the power steering bracket. I also have a ground from the wiper motor to the firewall.

some other information that might or might not be related:
-after screwdriver jumping for a while, my ballast resistor was immensely hot. couldnt even pick it up.
-the blinkers dont work correctly. when they are turned on, the lights just go brighter.

my gut still tells me its an electrical issue and not a mechanical issue. any ideas?

be sure the grounds are not insulated by engine or chassis paint, on the lead to the power steering bracket, I would want it on the block.

have you ran a voltage test, at the starter,, what do you get when the motor is being cranked?

Yep, check for voltage drop on ground side of ignition circuit.

Remake all ground cable connections especially that one at power steering bracket where current is trying to pass through several layers if fresh paint and mechanical connections.

Any time bracketry is used to flow electrons there is a greater potential for problems due to too many poor high resistance paths to ground. Don't discount paint and grease defiled female threads adding significant resistance to circuit as well.


Attach ground cable to one of bolts threaded into block holding PS bracket using star lock washers under this connection to bite into metal of block and head of bolt providing a good path for electron flow.

Add a flat 1/4" wide x 6" long ground cable from head to fire wall using star washers to bite through paint.



Black wire under bolt and ground strap at fire wall is a secondary ground path or loop that connects to orange box, voltage regulator, and alternator's cases or chassis to provide a voltage drop free connection to negative battery terminal that does not rely on 46 year old body welds to complete ground path. I also have a ground loop picking up head and parking light grounds used in conjunction to relay powered headlight circuit powered directly from battery; big improvement in lumen output when full voltage gets to lamp's filaments, and big current load removed from headlight switch and bulkhead connector.

Just my 2 cents...

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67' Dart GT Convertible; the old Chrysler Corp.
82' LeBaron Convertible; the new Chrysler Corp
07' 300 C AWD; Now by Fiat, the old new Chrysler LLC

That main lead should be bolted to the block using one of the bolts holding the power steering bracket to the block as a stock location. You need to get a wiring diagram for the car, it also sounds like your forward wiring harness that has the turn signal circuits has a broken ground as well.

-D.Idiot

when i have the ignition turned, the terminal on the starter for the battery lead is at 22. when im testing that same spot with the screwdriver jumping the relay, it drops to 0.

coincidently, the solenoid terminal starts at 0 and then jumps up to 20 when the screwdriver hits.

also, i have switched the battery ground to the block right at the motor mount. someone a month ago had a similar issue, but that was found to be the neutral safety switch wire. i dont believe this issue to be the same, as my wire for the switch is continuous.

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I am certain there is far too much certainty in the world.

ive moved the alternator regulator to the firewall, sanding down all paint in a broad square behind the regulator. ive also moved the ballast to behind the power booster, and it got really hot again after testing the voltages.

listening to the advice of wjajr, should i just move the ground that connects the wiper motor and the firewall to the top of the block?

<a href='http://postimg.org/image/4ga390zrh/' target='_blank'><img src='http://s14.postimg.org/4ga390zrh/20131009_113628.jpg' border='0' alt="20131009 113628" /></a>
new location. the old location used to be on top of that power steering bracket with a star washer. the surface of the bracket is sanded as well as the back of it, and the block of the engine.

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this is the ground wire i was talking about. also, you ca see the new location of my alternator regulator.

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I am certain there is far too much certainty in the world.

I'm not sure about the 20, is that volts your reading?
If the voltage reading on the large starter connection (battery positive) goes to 0 when trying to start it leads to either a bad positive battery cable or a bad battery.

Funny story. When I was 14 or so I watched two guys trying to get a slant powered duster started. I watched for about an hour as they tried and tried to no avail. Finally I got up enough courage to go over to them. They looked at me kind of funny when I asked what the problem was. They got it to turn over by jumping the starter terminals with a screwdriver and then TURNING THE KEY to start! I told them it was a bad battery positive cable. They did not believe me. I took one of their booster cables and clamped it on the battery and the starter positive terminal. They turned the key and away she went! I gave them a new battery cable I had (I was working on my first car, a vega) and helped them install it. Earned me a case of beer! Gotta love the seventies!

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Mattelderca
78 NYB (gone now), two S series, three old Snow Cruisers and a Doo.

Leave wiper motor grounded to fire wall as you have it if it works without any voltage drop. But, install an additional bradded ground strap bonding fire wall and head of engine. I used the engine lifting bolt hole closest to fire wall to attach or bond to head. I think I got that strap in the electrical section at an auto parts store, it is large enough to carry any load from dash on other side of fire wall, and any of the engine compartment mounted electrical devices. It is important that orange box (if equipped), voltage regulator, and alternator all see the same potential as negative battery terminal, in other words no voltage drop between negative battery terminal and chasses or outer box of VR, Orange Box, and Alt Case for them to work properly.


You may want to install a larger gage ground to wiper motor.
Grounding of wiper motor on my variable speed unit is accomplished by flat strip of brass connecting case of motor to firewall I’m pointing to:


Engine mount bolt may work, but I would be careful about torqueing down the bolt properly at 45 ft-lb using cable end as a washer. Crimped thinned brass cable end is not designed to be washer, it can be crushed easily causing a dynamically loaded threaded fastener to work loose. This is not a good bolt to be working loose for two reasons; first it holds engine in place, second it fails electrically if becomes loose. This why I used a bolt securing power steering bracket to block as a grounding terminal; no big dynamic load, limited vibration, and away from headers.

When I got the car a short ground cable was attached by one of water pump bolts. I did not think this afforded a good connection with water pump housing sandwiched between cable and threads of block. It also was too close to fan, and looked messy. Hard to see, but a longer ground cable is now attached by bottom right bolt in under PS bracket to block:

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67' Dart GT Convertible; the old Chrysler Corp.
82' LeBaron Convertible; the new Chrysler Corp
07' 300 C AWD; Now by Fiat, the old new Chrysler LLC

ive picked up the ground strap from advance and i will try to move the bracket bolt to the power steering. also, im reading about 28 on my multimeter for AC on the top of the starter. i must have made a mistake earlier when I stated 22.

btw whats this orange box youre talking about?

and finally, are we sure that its a grounding issue? if theres any other alternatives, id like to try those too.

awesome story mattelderca. nothing like showing up a bunch of mechanics when youre only 14, and still getting rewarded with beer for it. i dont believe its the positive cable since im still getting 28 (volts?) to the starter, but ill keep it in mind and maybe even pick up another one just for $#!+.

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I am certain there is far too much certainty in the world.

You should not be getting 20, 28 or even 22 volts! Multi meter should be set to DC volts.
Your battery is a 12 volt one I hope. Unless your not working on a slant!
With the engine off you should see about 12.5, and around 14 running.
A picture of the left side of the engine compartment might help point out a problem to us.
The orange box is a common term for the Chrysler electronic ignition module. They are usually orange, gold, or silver, but I've seen them blue, chrome and black as well.

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Mattelderca
78 NYB (gone now), two S series, three old Snow Cruisers and a Doo.

If your car is original (being 1970) you don't have an EI module, you have points and so you can not worry about this comment. Luckily 1970 was he first year for electronic voltage regulators and so you are 1/2 way there if you want to upgrade your ignition as well.

FYI,

-D.Idiot

thanks for the knowledge. electrical is not my forte. however, i have discovered something that may be important...

switching to DC, my starter and alternator are both at 12v. now that i know what AC and DC are, i went nuts with my multimeter. ive found that my ignition coil has no power. both parts of my ballast resistor have no power. tracing back the wire, ive found something of interest...

four wires are crossed together in a clusterfuck. this is factory made, but would this cause everything to short out? two wires go to either side of the ballast resistor, one to the bulkhead connector, and one to the alternator resistor. is this whats causing there to be no power to the ignition coil, ballast resistor and such? it doesnt make sense why the starter wouldnt even turn the engine over if it were a bad ignition coil...

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I am certain there is far too much certainty in the world.

No, you have found four (+) feed wires spliced together in the factory splice. Rewrap that in some form of protective tape or plasti-dip or some other material to protect the splice from the elements. This is a perfectly fine part of you wiring harness and is not a problem. In fact, it is just as the factory intended it.

Read that again. Your assertion and your question are incompatible.
Can you post a picture of what you are calling the "alternator resistor"? There is no such part.
No, and no, a bad coil won't make the engine not turn over.

Here is my advice to you. Stop. Stop right now. Put down your tools and stop unwrapping the wiring harness. Purchase a factory service manual for your car and start studying the electrical section. Pay particular attention to the wiring diagram.

Does anyone out there have a 1970 shop manual from which they could scan and post the wiring diagrams?

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Casually looking for a Clifford hyperpak intake for cheap.

i have one sitting right next to me. and its a voltage regulator, which comes from the alternator. common slip of the tongue. so please, chill out a bit and give me something constructive i can use rather than chastising me for not knowing whats wrong with my car when ive clearly asked for help for a reason.

it makes sense that ive asked about the 4 wire splice. the diagram showed 4 wires going into the ballast resistor, while my car only had 3. that discrepancy made me believe that its causing a short in the system. not a very illogical leap.

so do you have anything to contribute? the wiring diagram is right next to me and ive been exhausting options for 3 weeks.

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I am certain there is far too much certainty in the world.

All I ask is that you use the correct names for the parts you are referring to since "clusterfuck" and "alternator resistor" aren't diagnostically useful words in this situation. Help us help you. Learn the names of what you are talking about.

You said electronics weren't your thing. I warned you to stop out of concern that you might injure yourself or damage your car by poking around in the wiring. Sorry if you were offended by my trying to keep you from damaging your body or car.

Check the integrity of the battery cables. They can look fine but fail internally and stop conducting electricity when a high amp load (such as starting the engine) is placed on them. The cable might pass a light load such as interior lights but fail under a heavy load.

Also, FYI- the wiring diagram you are looking at is a generic wiring diagram for "earlier models" and is not specific to your vehicle. You need to get a factory service manual for your specific year car. As an example, the diagram you posted a picture of shows an alternator with one field. Your 1970 Dart has a dual field alternator and a different wiring harness under the hood.

The field wires on your alternator are dark blue and you have most likely found the splice on one of those field wires. The oldest factory wiring diagram I have is for a 1974 Plymouth Duster. On that vehicle the blue field wire splits shortly behind the alternator with one wire going to power the electric assist for the thermostatic choke pulloff and the other wire agin splitting at a large splice ("clusterfuck" to you) with the wires branching off to pawer various underhood and in-car devices. This is why you need to use the shop manual specific to your car and not the generic Haynes or Chiltons manuals available at the parts store.

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Casually looking for a Clifford hyperpak intake for cheap.