Hello All,
I recently rebuilt the Long Rod motor (w/198 rods and KB 268 pistons) in my sisters car after having what I assume were timing issues that resulted in enough preignition to put a hole in one piston and crack most of the others (same KB hyper pistons). I tuned it with a wideband and am fairly confident that it wasnt running lean at any point during idle, acceleration and cruise conditions (ranged from 13.5 to 14.9 in all the varied driving she did while I was watching the gage) during about an hour of total driving/recording time.
The motor was originally built (zero-decked) by a local performance builder about a year ago (<10K miles). The most recent tuning I did prior to the damage was installing the longer ZFR5N NGK's, fine tuned the fuel (also recently installed an Aussiespeed Hurricane 4 barrel with Edel 1404 carb) and then swapped in a green spring and the heavy spring from bigslant's kit. I never checked the timing curve after that so that's probably part of the problem.
Anyway, I just reinstalled the motor after replacing all the pistons and honing the cylinder that had the really bad piston in it (a bit of Al was stuck to the wall). I also reverted back to the super six setup and installed a crank trigger and EDIS ignition (will go full COP when I feel like doing more wiring...have it set up right now to be PnP when I get around to it, right now its triggering a 96 voyager coil which is very similar to the stock Ford EDIS coil) and a MegaJolt ignition controller.
What I think happened was there was a bit too much advance at crusie (the damage occured when she was driving at freeway speeds for about 30 minutes...first time that she'd done that since the most recent tuning session/recurve), but I'm not 100% positive there was not a lean condition of some sort happening as well, only pretty sure since the fuel looked plenty fat on the wideband when I was dialing it in as well as immediately after the damage occured (running $#!++y and blowing smoke due to the piston w/ hole in it, but still a nice, slightly rich curve).
What I am hoping someone can help me with is a decent timing map that is a bit more on the conservative side to hopefully prevent this from reoccuring. Since he motor was zero-decked (wasn't aware of that until I pulled the head) I also switched back to some stock length NGK plugs to pull the spark a little further away from the face of the piston, in case that contributed to the issue.
We were also having a few issues with getting an overall good tune with the stock cam that the engine builder had reground by one of his local associates, idle was a bit rough and it was difficult to find a sweet spot for overall acceptable running. She was also getting extremely poor mileage (~ 12mpg average, lowest was about 10 and best was about 13.5) So, I also installed an Erson E470000 RV 10 M (F212/295 108+4) cam and degreed it to meet the specs on the grind sheet. Overall it ended up at 106 cL and within a degree of the target values at .050". In order to get it that close I had to retard the timing -8 and minus one tooth on the rollmaster timing set. I called Erson to verify my thoughts on installing it that way vice at 103-104 intake cL and they told me that was meant to be installed using those .050 numbers, so that's what I went with. They also explained away why it would need to be retarded that much...also curious as to whether or not anyone else has had to retard a cam that much.

Anyway, sorry for the long post, but I wanted to be a thorough as possible in the description of the setup. Thanks in advance for your time!

Josh

also, I fired it to verify the ignition setup was good using only the EDIS box with the MJ box disconnected...approx 10* base advance (didnt actually check it, but it's likely very close to that due to the design of the system... I think this one will actually be somewhere closer to 9* when I do check it due to installing the sensor slightly retarded from dead center of the #6 tooth) and it ran better than I've ever seen it... It started immediately and was idling extremely smoothly, just want to get the timing closer to dead on before I break in the new cam.

Also thought I'd post a few pics of the EDIS crank trigger setup in case anyone is curious and/or wants to replicate it...

https://sites.google.com/site/joshricks/edis-pics

I used 2 sections (~3" or so) of 1.5" angle iron and welded them together and to the timing cover. I then stacked a few pieces of flat bar stock to get the appropriate height for the sensor to be in the middle of the trigger wheel. The top piece I drilled to accept the sensor and then marked it after mock up to be in final position and then welded that in place. The final mock up requires the teeth to be between .030" and .060" (.75-1.5mm) away from the sensor.

The wheel is the 8.25" one from DIYAutotune found here:
http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/14-3 ... p-180.html
and several 1/8" thick 2" dia 3/4" hole washers to back up the wheel to the crank pulley/dampener.

Anyone?

You seem to have a good understanding of your combination and to be honest, it's somewhat unique.

A few comments:
I have had to retard a few of the Erson RDP street cams to get the correct installed centerline and a more even overlap event.
(Erson grinds 4 degrees of advance into their cams, unless you tell them not to)

I never use the ultra-long tip spark plugs in any SL6 that has known static compression over 9 to 1 or 8 to 1 DCR. Those plugs are really hot, heat range wise.

I ran some numbers and can see that with a stock cam, the DCR is pretty aggressive. (8.3 to 8.5 range) Do you know your head's combustion chamber cc's?

Have you run the DCR calc with the Erson RV10 RDP?
DD

Doc,
I have not run any calculations on the DCR, I do know the head is a later drool tube which IIRC are around 60cc. I had full intentions of cc'ing the head (and then calculating it) before I bolted it back on (brought my labstand and buret and everything) but did not get around to it and wanted to be done with reassembly... this is a weekend rush type of project for me (in L.A.) and I'm a full time student at UCSD(and Active Duty Navy).

I do know that the head was ported slightly and has 340 valves and better seals/springs installed when it was rebuilt/machined last year. At any rate I believe this was the head that was on a later drool tube engine (post '67 crank), although the car is a '66 Valiant Wagon, so that may not be correct, hopefully the pics help a bit.

RE: the ZFR5N's...wish I would have listened to my Dad's concerns about the extra long tips... oh well, live and learn I guess... I doubt it would have been a big deal if there was a bit more deck clearance although the dish on the KB268 (~8cc again IIRC) probably helped a bit.

Here's some pics of the head when I had it apart...prior to replacing the valves/seal in cyl #3 and cleaning all the burned up oil gunk/etc from the front 3... Also included is a pic of the cam grind sheet and my notes from degreeing it.

https://sites.google.com/site/joshricks ... info-sheet

I was having issues with the tool (head bolt welded to an old lifter) I was using to indicate valve lift as it wasn't perfectly straight and the dial indicator was walking a little bit on the tip of the bolt, but I must've done it 50 times and I am confident that the numbers i got were the best that could be done (and very consistent if I kept an eye on the tip of the indicator).
I could've possibly got it slightly closer if I retarded it another tooth on the cam and played with the adjustment at the crank timing gear, but I got it to this point about 1AM on a Thursday night and called Erson the next morning and decided to run with it after talking to them (they said theres a little leeway in the numbers and that perhaps the blank needed to be cleaned up, the /6 has a different core cL than most other engines, etc..)

Anyway, any and all guidance is greatly appreciated. Also: I still plan to get (at least) one of your manifolds, this "project'" popped up and now I cant afford it for a while...

OK...
Looks like the head was resurfaced so my guess is that it is not at 60 cc's.
I worked the DCR numbers based on your info and some assumptions.
(56cc head and a .040 head gasket thickness)
Note, that KB268 piston has an 18 cc dish & 3.445 starting bore size.

So at zero deck you have an 8.85 to 1 stactic CR.
Set that RDP cam where you did and I came-up with a DCR of 8.18... a touch on the "spicy" side but it will work on the street.

When I run the calc using a stock cam set "straight-up"... I get a 8.42 DCR, that will ping like crazy on pump fuel & 30 total advance.

Note, I ran DCRs with Intake Closing (IC) from 32 degrees, (stock cam) thru 48 (retarded RV10 RDP) and here are some of the DCRs:
32 degrees IC = 8.42 DCR
38 IC = 8.25 DCR
40 IC = 8.18
42 IC = 8.11
48 IC = 7.88

So advancing or retarding the cam 2 degrees is giving you about .07 of DCR change.
Intake closing (IC) has a big impact on DCR so the person that tried to "explain away" the effect of retarding / advancing the cam should do their homework. (run the DCR numbers)

In closing... you have a combo that is right where you want it... where cam phasing is important... where you set the cam on this combo will make the difference between an engines that runs well on pump fuel or pings like crazy.

The good news, the change to the RDP cam alone has reduced the DRC a good amount.
DD

The guy i talked to(Eric maybe?!?!) was mainly trying to explain why my numbers were inconsistent, i.e. why the intake cL was not agreeing with the .050 numbers. He suggested that leaving like i have it installed was the way to go. I.e. with the. 050 events occurring as the sheet calls for versus setting it to the intake cL(since that and the exhaust events were slightly off from the sheet). I think that better explains what i did there.

I used a standard felpro gasket and standard head bolts (vice studs) so i think the .040 number for that thickness is good. 18cc dish is definitely the correct number... i dunno where i got 8 from, i think the other KB ones are 5.

So, looking at my Cam notes, the Cam is installed on a 106 intake cL, even though i did retard it quite a bit to get it there. With the 8.18 DCR, What kind of ignition timing advance (total.. I'll do the initial for best vacuum at idle as usual, unless you say different) do you recommend for this engine? I think were running NGK 5 series plugs, but will have to double check with Pappy when i call him later. Would it be worth it to go colder, like 6 or 7 series?

The megajolt box has a MAP sensor vacuum input for vacuum advance, what kind of vacuum curve do you think would be a good starting point for this build?

My plan is to play it safe on the advance and then try to find a good place to mount a knock sensor to fine tune it over the next few weeks. My sister is moving down here tomorrow, so when i get it running better well bring it down here and i can tinker with the timing.

I never heard any pinging on this engine (at least nothing like my old Twin Turbo Stealth when it knock on high boost and 93 octane way back when) but maybe there was some minor pinging hidden by the solid lifter noise... i dunno.

At any rate, thank you immensely for all the information. It will give me a bit to mull over the next week or so before i finish it up. It is good to get confirmation that the cam is set up favorably(although it idled very smoothly when we tested the EDIS so that's not too surprising i guess...). I'm definitely glad i took the time to degree it. The reground cam that was in there probably wasn't as the guy who built it last year tried to play down the importance of that when we talked to him about it and we never could get it to run "right". I guess we'll no longer use him to do anything more than machine parts.

I was just wondering if maybe i should look into picking up another head to mess with and swap out at some point, perhaps find a larger CC one and have some work done on that. Thoughts?

Are you running MS&E?

I have an EDIS setup on my slant, and even with a stock engine, I can make it ping, or not pretty easily, depending on my ignition map.

I'm running a megajolt, not the full on -squirt. They have a windows based tuning software that i am also trying to get up and running on Linux...will probably wind up doing something with a virtual machine. I think Ms&e is a megasquirt software for the msii+ boards, no?

As far as maps go, Doc has calculated a DCR of 8.11, which seems to me to be a good estimate given what i know about the engine. Do you have a map on hand that you would recommend I start with?

When you make a stock motor ping, what kind of numbers are you running for total advance and what rpm does it start happening? I have never heard one of these ping before, how noticeable is it? My only experience with pinging is running too much boost for pump gas on my old stealth but that engine was almost silent compared to these beasts.

Anyway, i am confident that i had the fuel fairly well dialed in on the old Carb, but ran plugs that were way too hot and also think i had too much advance in at cruise. Anyway one piston with a hole and the other five with cracks all over the crown required an overhaul that I'd rather not repeat. So I'm going to start with a really conservative curve and slowly tune it to get the most from it. I am also going to either run some 7 or 8 heat range gold palladium plugs and hope that it keeps burning clean. Anyway, thanks for the input so far!@

Hi SurfRodder, please update us later on your success in getting the software to run under Linux (using Wine?).

Olaf.

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Aspenized

Olaf,
Will do.

interestingly, the dongle/converter cable that I bought to go from usb to serial (9 pin, RS-232 or whatever) input of the megajolt was extremely easy to get linux to play nice with compared to Win7 that I have as an alternate boot OS for my netbook. I finally got win7 to recognize the converter (Prolific 2303 chip) after many hours dorking around with different versions of the driver... apparently the chip in my adapter is a knock-off of the "real" 2303 chip and not supported my Prolific's actual drivers on their site... Anyway, worked right out of the box on linux (native kernel support for 2.4 or higher), but I don't have a copy of Winders ([/West Texas accent]) on VirtualBox on this machine yet... definitely rather have Win7 run as a slave OS if possible...I hate the interface/look of it that much...

So, once I get a virtual machine of win7 going (or possibly XP...prolly less hassle) I'll try to see if the guest additions will allow access to the usb properly. we'll see. At any rate, Ill keep you posted.

josh

Olaf of Oceanside? Look at Andys brilliant debian workstation writeup ( my debian for dummies post has link) on diyefi.org. I'm following it to the letter now an so far so good, with minor kernel version typos. Those phony prolific chips suck! Went through that mess to. Serial cable on OLD laptop solved that....

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I didn' t buy it, I built it.....