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 Post subject: Oil Light issues
PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 10:42 am 
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Turbo Slant 6
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Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2003 12:59 pm
Posts: 852
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Car Model: Once owned a 1963 Dart 170 Suburban
My 60 V200 wagon has it's original 170 with 68K original miles. It sat for 35+ years before my old mechanic got it running again, nearly 10 years ago. The engine hasn't been rebuilt, and I don't drive it regularly but I start it every now and then.

The car has always had operating issues. It runs hot, the carb snorts, it's hard to start after running hot and once you crank it and it finally catches, it always belches black exhaust from running rich or flooding. There's lots of blow-by, after getting good and hot, the oil light always comes on at low idle. Because I haven't ever driven the car more than every once in a while, I've not worked on these issues. But recently the oil pressure light's been coming on when the car is cold, not hot and staying on unless I increase RPM's. Now I don't feel like I can coast anymore on doing nothing, so must fix all of this.

I'm rebuilding the carb, so all carb-related snorting and hard starting should go away.

Blow-by, hot running, that won't get fixed without pulling the head and at a minimum, a ring job and all-new head gaskets, stem seals. Is there any easier-than-rebuilding-solution to this? The oil light coming on could mean the oil pump relief valve is stuck, but I think more likely the oil control rings are totally shot. I haven't taken a compression reading recently, but based strictly on starting and idle cadence, compression sounds ok (obviously I know I need to test it, but I haven't done it yet).

I haven't done Dan's slow-expensive flush process: awhile back he said he thought the rings might be stuck and the flush could help clear that up. What are other people's experience? Should I just dive into a rebuild? If pistons are good, can I get away with a re-ring job and avoid rebuilding the whole bottom end? Or is it pointless to do that if I'm taking it all apart to do the rings?

Advice please.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 11:12 am 
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Supercharged
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Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2005 8:32 pm
Posts: 7834
Location: Portland-ish
Car Model: Fiat 500e
Running that rich for that long you're almost assured that the cylinders will be tapered and out-of-round. This means reboring, new oversize pistons and rings.

Oil pressure doesn't have anything to do with the oil control rings on the pistons. It's a supply and demand problem. Worn bearings increase the demand and a worn oil pump decreases the supply.

If the oil control rings are plugged you will pass more oil up the cylinders and eventually out the exhaust. If the cylinders are tapered though the oil rings will not be able to follow the bore well and will allow oil to travle up the cylinders.

Fix the carburetor and then decide what you want from the car. Also, do Not start the car unless you intend to warm it up completely and drive it. You do more harm than good in starting a cold engine and leaving condensation in the crankcase and cylinders. Do treat the fuel so that it doesn't turn to shelac and do more damage.

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Joshua


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 2:37 pm 
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Turbo Slant 6
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Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2003 12:59 pm
Posts: 852
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Car Model: Once owned a 1963 Dart 170 Suburban
Thanks Josh.

What do you mean "running that rich for that long"? It has had this issue for a time, but remember, I'm not driving this thing more than a few times per year and then, not usually for long periods either.

When I say "belching black exhaust", that was an exaggeration. In truth, I run it, it runs warm/hot, I park, shut the engine off. Come back to it 20-40 minutes later, and you're cranking the engine for 5-10 seconds before it starts. When it does, there's a wafting of slightly darker exhaust, which tells me it's not-fully-burned fuel being expelled.

When the car is started, I always let it warm up fully. No short startups and stops. You're right, that would be hard on the engine.

Thanks, I do treat the fuel already so I don't end up with shellac in my tank.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 2:57 pm 
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Supercharged
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Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2005 8:32 pm
Posts: 7834
Location: Portland-ish
Car Model: Fiat 500e
By the amount of blow-by you indicated you have worn rings and cylinders. This is caused most quickly by fuel washing the oil from the cylinder walls. Another cause is when engines sit for a long time the oil drains off the cylinders and very fine rust occurs. The rings take the rust right off, but you lose material from the cylinder walls and the ring faces. To fix the cylinder sealing problems will require reboring. To fix the oil pressure problem will likely require new cam, main and rod bearings and possibly an oil pump.

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Joshua


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 3:10 pm 
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Supercharged
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Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:05 pm
Posts: 3767
Location: Black Diamond, WA
Car Model:
I second rebuilding the carb too! You will need a new needle and seat to shut the fuel off during a typical heat soak cycle. If you haven't done SL6 Dan's fuel line mod or run a heat deflector under the carb heat soak can be a real bugger. I always run my float a little low to keep good pressure on the needle and seat. That will help stop the flooding during heat soak. The new ethanol blended fuel will eat the Viton needle tips over time.....
I have a fuel pressure gauge in-line on mine and monitor the pressures during and after shut off to be sure it doesn't leak and or flood. No use wasting the fuel, and washing your cylinders down and then causing oil dilution which reduces oil pressure even more over time. A rich running carb can destroy a motor in a short period of time.

On your engine flush question.......You can free up the rings over time by running some Rislone in the oil or a pint of transmission fluid. Some motors will respond to this if the rings aren't plugged too bad. I have brought a few back to life over the years.

Like Josh says, a rebuild would be nice......

Click on the red link below my name to view photos.

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Aggressive Ted

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74 Swinger, 9.5 comp 254/.435 lift cam, 904, ram air, electric fans, 2.5" HP2 & FM70 ex, 1920 Holley#56jet, 2.76 8 3/4 Sure-Grip, 26" tires, 25+MPG


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 7:43 pm 
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Turbo Slant 6
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Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2003 12:59 pm
Posts: 852
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Car Model: Once owned a 1963 Dart 170 Suburban
Quote:
By the amount of blow-by you indicated you have worn rings and cylinders. This is caused most quickly by fuel washing the oil from the cylinder walls. Another cause is when engines sit for a long time the oil drains off the cylinders and very fine rust occurs. The rings take the rust right off, but you lose material from the cylinder walls and the ring faces. To fix the cylinder sealing problems will require reboring. To fix the oil pressure problem will likely require new cam, main and rod bearings and possibly an oil pump.
Thanks for the clarification Josh. Ugh. :x


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:54 am 
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Turbo Slant 6
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Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2003 12:59 pm
Posts: 852
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Car Model: Once owned a 1963 Dart 170 Suburban
Quote:
To fix the oil pressure problem will likely require new cam....
Hey Josh - why a new cam?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 12:09 pm 
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Supercharged
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Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2005 8:32 pm
Posts: 7834
Location: Portland-ish
Car Model: Fiat 500e
Cam, main and rod Bearings.

_________________
Joshua


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:30 pm 
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Turbo Slant 6
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Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2003 12:59 pm
Posts: 852
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Car Model: Once owned a 1963 Dart 170 Suburban
Yes, can you explain why a new cam will help me solve an oil pressure problem? is it the gear connection between the camshaft and the oil pump that you are saying will be renewed by installing a new camshaft? I always thought the camshaft situation with the oil pump was pretty black and white: the gears either drove the oil pump or they were stripped and it didn't. more to share about this?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:53 pm 
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Supercharged
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Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2005 8:32 pm
Posts: 7834
Location: Portland-ish
Car Model: Fiat 500e
Cam bearings, main bearings, rod bearings.

_________________
Joshua


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 10:36 pm 
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Turbo Slant 6
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Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2003 12:59 pm
Posts: 852
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Car Model: Once owned a 1963 Dart 170 Suburban
I gotcha. Thanks.


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